LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

[optionalrationale]

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

Ah the op has woken up.

Have you never voted for your MEP?

BTW it might be worth reading the Citizen's guide to the EU. It's an explanation of how the democratic process works in the EU. Just because it is different from the UK system doesn't mean it's less democratic. It also critiques it.
Penguin books, I think.

I no longer bother voting in elections to the EU Parliament. It does nit have legislative initiative. MEPs themselves have voted three times to end the farce of moving the whole staff and boxes of paper from Brussels to Strasbourg every 4th week. The Strasbourg building employs over 100 people full time even though it is only used for 48 days each year. Their duties include turning on the taps before MEPs arrive to ensure there is no stale water in the pipes. Nice work if you can get it. Only recently did they agree that it was a good idea to switch off the TVs in offices and conference rooms when the building was not in use (317 days of the year). Previously they were kept running. MEPs were given instructions that IT would not switch on their TVs for them. They would have this inconvenience themselves. They were given written instructions on how to do this (poor little lambs).

Of course the (unelected) French representatives on the EU Council veto the vote of the EU Parliament on ending the Strasbourg nonsense every single time. This madness continues because the institution of the EU is flawed by design.

Turnout in the 2014 elections for MEPs was just 42.61%. Turnout is falling rapidly every time they have an election since the first one in 1979. In some EU countries less than 15% of people bother to vote for their MEPs. It is a body that doesn't even have the power to decide where / when it sits.

Literally a talking shop.

From their own website
www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2014-results/en/turnout.html

Turnout in Slovakia is 13.05%. European voters do not want to waste their time voting for this joke of a parliament.

Up at 5am like me. Insomnia is a cruel thing.

Please tell me again how leaving the EU will mean our politicians making better decisions for us in the realms of education, social care, housing and the NHS.

Obviously people voted Leave for different reasons, but I imagine that those many who said they wanted "sovereignty" did so because they thought that it would mean politicians making better decisions for us. I don't remember Leave campaigners saying "Of course, because Parliament has full sovereignty over almost all the issues that really matter to you, leaving the EU can bring you very few recognisable benefits"

And don't say "oh, well, you can always vote them out if you don't like them" We have always had that power. I want to know how leaving the EU will mean that politicians can exercise that power better in all the areas where we already had full sovereignty.

I imagine that those many who said they wanted "sovereignty" did so because they thought that it would mean politicians making better decisions for us

Hopefully but I would imagine those who wanted "sovereignty" did so because they thought it would mean UK politicians making the decisions for us.

you can always vote them out if you don't like them" We have always had that power No the UK has never had the power to get rid of all the MEPs. And its actually all the other unelected commissioners that are even more of a concern.

What decisions have they taken, anon, that you felt were wrong?

What decisions have they taken, anon, that you felt were wrong?

You keep asking that but their decisions are irrelevant. Its who is making those decision that is the problem. Today's benign undemocratic commission is tomorrows malign dictatorship. Democracy should be devolved closer to the people it governs, not given to far away countries with no transparency.

If the EU is to succeed it needs massive reform and decentralization of power to member states.

Not in the least irrelevant, and very telling that there is never an answer, just references to a fantasy dystopian future.

I agree reform is needed. We have now given up all power to influence that reform.

“Some people genuinely believe that we shall never get social justice from the British Government, but we shall get it from Jacques Delors; They believe that a good king is better than a bad Parliament. I have never taken that view. - Tony Benn

The UK has given up trying to get that reform in the EU, it now seems its actually impossible to achieve because the EU itself is probably unreformable.

you can always vote them out if you don't like them" We have always had that power No the UK has never had the power to get rid of all the MEPs. And its actually all the other unelected commissioners that are even more of a concern.

I was responding to the OP who said that we could vote out TM if we wanted to and was pointing out that we had always had that power, being in or out of the EU makes no difference.

I understand why the idea of sovereignty has powerful appeal - I'm just a little puzzled why there seems to be such optimism about what that will actually do for us that is so much better than now. Since successive governments don't seem able to tackle the issues that are under their control why do we assume that they'll do so much better once we've left the EU? They've just produced a feeble air pollution strategy for instance.

I appreciate that there are leavers like Tim Montgomerie who think that politicians will be forced to take better decisions when they can't blame the EU for everything. I suppose I'm just cynical enough to believe another excuse will be found.

Its been simmering under the surface for so long.The growing feeling of losing control of our country might not always have coalesced around one particular issue, maybe FOM last year. But now we are getting out its like a release valve has been opened. When all that pressure has been released we will see if it builds up somewhere else in the collective consciousness.

The people feeling they are / were losing control most are the young not the old.

Might be something to do with the fact that anyone born before 1971 will tax more out of the state than they contributed to it. So guess where the burden is placed.

Now add Brexit to that bill.

Guess where the leave / remain divide falls.

At around age 45.
Guess which year that people age 45 in 2016 were born....

Yet that's right. 1971.

Strange coincidence that.

My Mum born in the 1930s voted Remain. I have an under 45 family member who voted Leave.

People who lived through WWII = Remainers.

There is a clue here about why. It relates to democracy.

I have never felt like this, and I'd be surprised if many people ever did before the referendum was agreed to
Then why did UKIP build up such a big following? And why have all parties been promising a referendum on the EU for many many years. And why have so many Conservative MPs been pushing for it for years. Because people have been feeling this, for a long time.

As somebody said upthread, they didn't even vote in the EU elections
Not because of apathy but out of frustration. Even more reason to bring powers back to the UK.

The people feeling they are / were losing control most are the young not the old
Obviously its not that big of a deal to them or they would have bothered to vote in bigger numbers. There was enough of them to swing the referendum the other way.

Not because of apathy but out of frustration.
Where is the evidence for this?

Not because of apathy but out of frustration. Where is the evidence for this? Read his post yourself, its up thread.

Obviously its not that big of a deal to them or they would have bothered to vote in bigger numbers. There was enough of them to swing the referendum the other way.

Yes that simple. And that obvious. The reasons why they didn't vote are exactly about this thing about not feeling in control of their lives and nothing they do (including voting) will change that.

Its the general attitude that the young are useless and lazy...

And what about all the young people who DID vote. It just destroys faith in democracy even more when their concerns for post brexit Britain are not even been acknowledged much less discussed with their involvement.

Its just their 'fault' that others their age didn't also vote

Its been simmering under the surface for so long.The growing feeling of losing control of our country might not always have coalesced around one particular issue, maybe FOM last year. But now we are getting out its like a release valve has been opened. When all that pressure has been released we will see if it builds up somewhere else in the collective consciousness.

It will be interesting to see what happens when people realise how little the things they dislike are going to change. I listened to a Radio phone-in where people were asking what would happen after Brexit actually took place. Most of them seemed to think the EU was in control of things when they were not. The one I remember was "when will women's retirement age go back to 60?" - they thought that was something the EU was making us do.

It just destroys faith in democracy even more when their concerns for post brexit Britain are not even been acknowledged much less discussed with their involvement.
I agree with this. The youth vote (and other non-leave voters) haven't been acknowledged at all. They are just expected to suck it up while TM goes for hard Brexit. I would be extremely surprised if a significant number of leave voters weren't equally dismayed. The 'you lost, now fuck off' attitude is, to my mind, one of the biggest contributory factors to attitudes becoming more entrenched and for the extreme division we now have.