Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

there are (or were) picker gangs 2 years ago. So I doubt that it has changed that much.

thatcher wasn't your average yellowbelly either, her family owned two shops and she had a university education in chemistry before moving on to law and politics.

And she may have had something to do with Mr Whippy Ice cream

How much of that document has actually been explained to people?
Or been brokendown to a sensible size.

I am not claiming that everybody would listen.

I don't know, but it shows that the information is openly out there and easy to find.

I've also found that whenever you talk to people about things like immigration, in lots of different areas, that they are unwilling to listen to facts that oppose their stance on a matter.

I think the referendum shows that entirely, people don't listen to each other at all, and people only look for facts that confirm their opinions rather than making rational choices.

its only easy to find if you know its there, or what you are looking for.

I think the referendum shows that entirely, people don't listen to each other at all, and people only look for facts that confirm their opinions rather than making rational choices.

This I agree with entirely, the referendum has had a polarising effect. But not listening is something that both sides didn't do and many are still not doing.
You only have to look at the threads on here to see the bile that is still being thrown around (by both sides).

I agree that both sides aren't listening, but I also think that when it turns out that many of the concerns of one side ( immigration, sovereignty etc) turn out not to be factual concerns, more felt concerns its starts to feel a bit different.

I'm really not being patronising, I'm really not. I just keep hitting this barrier when trying to understand people's motivation to leave the EU.

Dannythechampion

Many of those concerns could have been addresses, but everytime someone started a discussion the responses were (too say the least) unfavourable.

immigration - racism
sovereignty - little Englander

All it did was serve to push people back further in to their positions.
If these issues had been talked about 10 or even 15 years ago they wouldn't have been in place today.

But that's not how it goes all the time is it?

People still choose to ignore the information even when it's presented to them.

As I said, in that document there is a point when one of the councillors notes that immigration was listed as the primary concern in Boston in 2001 and earlier, prior to EU8 immigration and prior to the large expansion in population. This suggests that there is something else other than immigration really being an issue.

That document also notes the significant extra funding Boston has had for dealing with immigration in schools etc, so that shows that things are being done about it!

and like many things it goes on in the background, no one knows, no one sees and no one says anything.

Feelings fester, people get ignored because they are told to shut up, or they should have faith in those in charge, no real arguments are put forth, and any questions aren't answered because the vast majority don't know what has gone on.

in the end you are left with four sides (generalising)
those that are against but know little
those that are for but know little
those that know but keep things hidden
and those that want to find out the truth but hit the wall of the three sides above. (and will get pulled apart if they say anything against the first two)

The elephant in the room here is the relentless anti-immigrant headlines pouring out of the Murdoch and Dacre press.

Yes I think the media have a major role to play in shaping the perception of immigration

There is actually little that is hidden, the information is all out there if you seek it.

The skill of the leave campaign was that it pandered to the prejudices of SOME voters, confirmed what they already thought, and gave them simple solutions to it.

I wouldn't go on the polls, they have been shown to be very inaccurate, they said leave would win 60/40 last time

Could you link to these polls Danny? I never saw them.

But you only knew that the information about Boston was there because someone had already shown you. To find it from there is relatively simple.

When you have to wade through all of the misinformation then its not as simple.

Especially when you know that statistics can be (and are) twisted to not give the truth.

Some of this is down to the free reign that the press have had.

The skill of the leave campaign
At least they had a campaign, the remain group could have at least tried to educate from the start.

Ah, I meant to say remain, at the start of the campaigns remain was quite far ahead in the polls.

Sorry for the mistake :)

"At least they had a campaign, the remain group could have at least tried to educate from the start."

The remain campaign did have a campaign, but it was massively misreported in the press, take Cameron's speech at the British Museum and the EU's role in the keeping the peace. It became WW3 will start without the EU, and laughed at. Also any adverse effects of leaving were derided as project fear.

The real advantage that the leave campaign had is that they could offer change, where as remain offered a continuation of the same but safety.

The change that the leave campaign offered, basically offered everyone who wanted change the simple solutions that they thought would bring it about.

Remain had a far more complicated task, to sell the benefits of economic stability to people who had been fed a diet of negative EU stories for decades.

Leave was skilled in its propaganda and is confirmation bias tactics, and its obfuscation of the truth.

Uh huh.

You keep banging on about people's concerns not being based on "facts" and realities, but then when presented with facts, like the clear picture from numerous polls that the vast majority of the country are behind Brexit, you just try to rubbish the "facts" because they don't fit your narrative.

"but then when presented with facts, like the clear picture from numerous polls that the vast majority of the country are behind Brexit, you just try to rubbish the "facts" because they don't fit your narrative"

But as I said polls have been shown to be dramatically incorrect both here and in the states within the last year and at the 2015 General Election.

The results of opinion polls are not facts at all, where as the data on the impact of immigration, the information about sovereignty etc are.

There is a difference.

Remain had a far more complicated task, to sell the benefits of economic stability to people who had been fed a diet of negative EU stories for decades.

The problem was that they didn't even try, they for a long time, sat back and believed the polls.

It wasn't until leave had built up a head of steam that they even took notice and tried to fight back. By then the cries of racist and little Englander were all over the shop and they were on the back foot (and as far as I can tell never tied to bring these people to heel).

They could have produced list after list of what the EU provided, what was funded, and where it went.

they could have pointed out the migrant numbers that were known and how in various areas the UK was benefiting from migrants.

They could have put forward economic benefits, what the trade deals were, what our import/export levels are.

They could have listed the subsidies from various areas against what the UK pays in to Europe.

The could even have spoken about the join police force operations that ensure the safety of people across the EU.

but instead they played the same shock and awe tactics that the leavers campaign did, and didn't start coming back to the relevant facts until it was far too late.

This is of course Just IMO.

Seeing as I can go find opinion polls that say the majority of the UK now wants to stay in the EU.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-majority-uk-remain-eu-theresa-may-article-50-second-referendum-latest-a7395811.html

Or that people regret voting for Brexit:

uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10

There are others out there, the YouGov polls that you are alluding to says that "still leaves the public evenly split between those who think it was right for Britain to vote for Brexit (44%) and those who think it was wrong (43%)"

The latest YouGov polls show that although people don't "back Brexit" but that : "More people who voted to Remain last year take the view that the government has a duty to follow the result and leave the EU than think they should try to reverse it."

This is very different than backing it.

It also shows that people are dumb because more people think "no deal is better than a bad deal" than don't.

But as I said polls have been shown to be dramatically incorrect both here and in the states within the last year and at the 2015 General Election.

and that comes back to ignoring people, the polls were not wrong, they were correct for the areas that they were asking in.

If they had taken a wider sample of the entire nation instead of a sample based on specific area and politics they would have gained a different result.

If you look at some of the information coming out of the US you can see that those polled were in built up areas and the majority of Trump voters were outside of those areas in rural settings.

BoneyBack.

I think the Leave campaign had a massive advantage in the fact that 4 out of 7 daily newspapers backed leaving, these were also the largest sellers. This allowed the agenda to be shaped far before the campaign started, actually for decades before it started.

The other thing is that all of the things you listed were discussed by the remain campaign, they were highlighted in materials, raised in speeches, but they were always responded to with cries of "liberal metropolitan elites", "Project fear", "Its our money anyway" .

The leave campaign dismissed any points that discussed the benefits of the EU thoroughly, an often counter factually, but then they were able to use the alt facts because they had no intention of ever being anywhere near power to make Brexit work.

It also shows that people are dumb

I was hoping that we had got away from the name calling.

Danny

The government has to take some responsibility for the way the press has been allowed to show immigration and Europe.

In a similar way to how the government bats around education, Europe is an easy scapegoat to project issues on to.

The government has been throwing around how 'nasty' Europe is for years, and then just expects everyone to change direction because they said so

"and that comes back to ignoring people, the polls were not wrong, they were correct for the areas that they were asking in. "

Many polls are conducted online are they not? So location wouldn't be that important?

You still can't present opinion polls as fact though.

"I was hoping that we had got away from the name calling."

I didn't say which particular side, just in general, anyone thinking that No deal is better than a bad deal is deluded.

However this also looks at the narrative that the UK press and current government are providing for the talks.

The UK goverment talk of keeping its cards close to its chest, like a game of poker, but it isn't poker, its looking for a mutually beneficial trade deal, in poker you look to beat your opponent.

The EU has already said that it will look to have a mutually beneficial partnership with us, but that there can't be a deal that is better than EU membership or one that cherry picks. This is being presented as a punishment.

The same YouGov poll shows that the majority of the British population surveyed want the Cake and Eat it scenario, which frankly isn't going to happen and never was. Yet was often discussed by the leave campaign, and any time that was challenged it was dismissed as project fear.

I think one of the great strengths of the leave campaign is that it made so many ridiculous claims that too much time was spent countering these and not enough selling the benefits of the EU, I think its a tactic Trump used too, as well as both making massive appeals to patriotism, and pandering to people's prejudices.

I agree regarding the government, especially the Conservatives, Labour were more pro EU, but were happy to blame its own failings in 2004 on the EU.