Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

Danny after the lessons of the EU if Asean accepts total free movement of people, I will eat Paddy Pantsdown's hat.

Being "economically integrated lessens the chances". So does mutially assured destruction.

Yes, but mutually assured destruction doesn't stop France and Germany going to war, or most of the other European countries as no one except France has Nukes. West Germany wasn't even a founder member of NATO.

The EU has played a part, and even Cameron said that, but no it becomes WW3 will start if we leave. Funny that leave had to lie so much in its campaign, why if leaving the EU was so good, could they not just be honest?

Danny, your comment
I didn't say that all leavers at all, I just said leavers, that could mean a few, or all, or anything you take it to mean

Just replace the word "leavers" in your sentence above with
Blacks
Jews
Gays
Travellers
Poles
Romanians
Pakistanis
Muslims

Thank you for being a role model of liberal tolerance and valiant crusader against prejudice and bigotry

What stops Germany going to war with France is not beacause of the EU, it's because they have brains (the thousands and thousands of US and British service men on their territory). What stops France going to war with Germany is that they wouldn't need to (see last sentence)..

But let's go with your version...
French General: "Monsieur Le President. Ahh sink we should show zose Germans ooo ees boss. Ah ave neveŕrrrr forgeeeeven zem for World Waaarrr Un or World Waaarrrr Deux. Zeees time, ah sink we should attack zem for once!!"

French President: "Hmmn, you might be right, mon cher General....Zat does sound like une idee tres formidable! Mais, ang on a minute, Claude! Aren't you forgetting somesing? Le EU!!!"

French General: "Zut alors!!! Mais oui, mon cher Preseident. I ad completely forgotten about zat! Please forgive me."

That's a poor point to make, if i was really going to pull that apart Id have said it was a sweeping generalisation, but trying to make out its akin to racisim and xenophobia is hilarious.

For one voting leave was a choice, the aforementioned are prejudices based on judgements based on someones racial and national background in which they have no actual choice (its one of the reasons its flawed).

Secondly I went back and said, some, in a later post, just to clarify, in fact I also used the phrase "a significant number" to further change the point made there.

Yet in your pedantry you have chosen to ignore that and instead tried to attack the semantics of what was said, in a post in an obscure corner of an internet forum.

You do however have to hold to your own conscience that the type of people who would, and do make prejudiced statements regarding your little list, were allied with you in your leave vote, and that the leave campaign needed to exploit those prejudices in order to win.

Just quoting your words Danny

I will just interject here OP, Danny has a fundamental problem not understanding that racism and immigration are two entirely different concepts. Youre flogging a dead horse. If you voted leave. You were, are, will always be a racist. (Though theres an inconvenient truth that NI, classed not so long back as 'the race hate capital of europe' voted remain, as would Hungary, Poland, Romania etc etc with shocking racially discriminative policies). Indeed, one could argue, theres a closer link to racism and pro-EU supporters, than leavers. Just as theres a strange silence on the lack of womens rights in Ireland regards pro choice. Can you imagine if we attempted to criminalise abortion here.

What is apparent is the intentional blurring of lines in the remain camp, between 'racism', 'culture' and 'immigration'. But Im getting picky. Lets just stick with all leave voters are racists. Its far easier.

I don't have a problem understanding the difference between the two at all.

I do have a problem that lots of leave voters blame immigration for problems that it is not responsible for, it merely demonstrates their massive prejudices.

I'd be careful when you're highlighting things like women's rights Caroline, because lots of the countries held up by leave voters as ones we should have trade deals with have very poor records on that, on human rights etc.

"I'd be careful when you're highlighting things like women's rights Caroline, because lots of the countries held up by leave voters as ones we should have trade deals with have very poor records on that, on human rights etc."

Like who? And Ill more than likely show you the EU nations who are already trading with those countries.

Considering the EU nations have been happily supplying arms to the middle east, Turkey, etc and the UK is the 2nd largest arms dealer in the world, Im not sure yet again, how youre linking EU membership with some high moral utopia you believe exists in trading partners.

The other part of your post simply re-iterates what Ive said. You cant see anything else except prejudice and racism.

Ah you see though, you held up parts of the EU that hold different attitudes to ours regarding certain things as being negative, and as a reason for justifying a leave vote.

Yes we already trade with Turkey and Saudi, and are likely to do far more.

I can see flaws in the EU just fine, but I can also see the main driver of the leave vote which is prejudice! You can attempt to dress it up in democracy and sovereignty, but that hasn't really worked has it, you can attempt to dress it up as a reaction to the Greek situation ( in which case why aren't you advocating leaving the IMF as well?) but really, when you clear all of the bull crap away, your left with the prejudiced reasons, and those alone with being the driving force behind leave's victory.

Danny
If there is another "Did you really mean it?" Referendum pigs might fly, you should definitely lead the Remain campaign. Clearly, your lot didn't shout "If you disagree with me you're a RACIST" loud enough and often enough.

After perhaps the seventeen millionth time of your shouting that at the electorate, I can just imagine thousands of voters (including the last few who actually fought Nazism unlike you), coming round to your logic and clarity of thinking.

"Thank you Danny. Thank you for showing me the light. I thought I had made my decision on my own assessment of the merits of each case. But now that you have called me a RACIST for the gazzillionth time, the scales have fallen from my eyes, I have seen the light, amen and hallelujah. From now on, Junkers is my BFF and I'm a Remainer for ever more."

Well, well, aren't leave voters such touchy little snowflakes about the immigration issue! Methinks you protest too much.

You won; why do you have such thin skins? And why the threads about what remainers think should happen? (Which it turns out you're not really interested in after all, except to rubbish even quite reasonable suggestions).

It turns out, not surprisingly, that most remainers want more information, more accountability, more honesty, better planning - and more say for the electorate over plans for a hard brexit that is wanted by a minority of the population. Quelle surprise.

What do remainers want? No Brexit. Failing that, the softest of soft Brexits. Surely that is so obvious you wouldn't need to ask?

Just replace the word "leavers" in your sentence above with Blacks, Jews, Gays, etc ad nauseum

Does this remain anyone else of that other arch leaver, surferjet's, plea for a law to protect leaver voters from hate speech?
You really couldn't make it up!

Gah - does this remind not *remain...?

Surely that is so obvious you wouldn't need to ask?
Quite, but the OP is a GF.

Many leavers say it wasn't about immigration because they don't want to admit that their votes are based on prejudice so they look around for something else.

Wanting immigration to be controlled/managed does not equal prejudice.

The problem that you have as a leave voter is that many of your compatriots were racist

Can you expand on/quantify 'many'?

Very lazy stereotyping.

Blaming all of the various problems in this country on one group of people is prejudiced. Its also incredibly lazy- let's just ignore the complex reasons for our problems and just blame the immigrants. Then we don't have to do anything to address them. Simples!

I, for one, would really like my country back, the one where my friends aren't told to go home because they dared to speak polish at the bus stop. As a leave voter you may not be racist, but your vote has given a massive boost to the knuckle dragging contingent in this country.

Oh dear, the 'Brexiteers are an oppressed group' canard, so often wheeled out when difficult or nuanced arguments are presented.

OP, your 'binary choice' is based on the false premise that 'make Brexit work' is possible. We don't know that it is.

Wanting immigration to be controlled/managed does not equal prejudice.

This is true, but wanting it to be controlled/managed in such a way that economic or social damage is inflicted looks remarkably like prejudice.

I would have a lot more sympathy for this argument if it were possible to have a reasoned discussion about the benefits of immigration, what levels of immigration are optimal, and how immigration policy can take account of the rights of individuals and the needs of businesses and the NHS. We already have a situation where employers (like my own) are forced to locate certain operations requiring scarce skills offshore because of immigration policy, and where NHS medical professionals are threatened with deportation even though they earn above the income threshold: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/176987

I would have a lot more sympathy for this argument if it were possible to have a reasoned discussion about the benefits of immigration, what levels of immigration are optimal, and how immigration policy can take account of the rights of individuals and the needs of businesses and the NHS

I too would welcome reasoned discussions covering all the points you make Misti, but unfortunately this is being stymied on two fronts:

The most extreme, hardcore Brexiters who are in the minority, who want no immigration at all (the blatant racists) and the Remainers who label every mention of controlling/managing immigration as having racist motivation.

The moderate & reasonable majority on oath sides of the vote are not zealots and see things in shades of grey.
Immigration is good, immigration is necessary, but completely uncontrolled/unmanaged immigration is problematic.

*oath should have been both