Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

If you want a transition period, then you need to start getting a bit sweeter with the EU rather than constantly attacking them.
Because by having a go like the UK has, the UK has also managed to upset a few people along the way, proven that some pre conceived ideas about the Uk are right etc...
And to get what we want, we need the approval of all the 27 countries in the EU.

I do get that most of what has been said is in effect internal politic and that there isn't a real wish to go out of the EU wo a deal at all.
But comments such as 'no deal is better than a bad deal' hasn't helped for example.
Nor has it helped the uk, IMO, to use people and security as bargaining chips. Or to make the situation as insecure as possible for all the EU citizens in the UK.

Near us, there someone who is trying to start a new mine (not coal but I whe ildminagine rhe issues are similar). They have been starting to work on it about 20 years ago. It went quiet and was awaken again more than 5 years ago.
They still started mining, nowhere near.
But the number of meetings with people (as the mine will be under their feet), documents to fill in etc.. is staggering. And that's just the tip of iceberg ....

mother if I was in the EU, I wouldn't be put out just by the issue of fees and loans. I would be massively put out by the government discourse about immigrants. And by the idea that by going to the uk, I would be an immigrant.
Until now, coming her, or in any other EU country, was staying in the same group. Nearly like being at home.
Now it will feel like going to the US or Australia. Somewhere different which means you would always think twice about doing so.
And that even wo talking of the small issue that student might only be able to do two years out of their three or that they couldn't carry on doing a PhD if they wanted to.

Blue,

Who is 'you' in your last but one post? You refer to the uk (presumably) as you in the second line of your post and then 'we' several lines later.

Hollande also initially said the UK must be 'punished' for leaving. Emotions were running high, both sides are far more measured now.

Last but 2 posts, seem to have x posted.

Back to the OP's question - I don't want to leave the EU at all. I value peace and prosperity; our freedom to live, work and retire in other EU countries unimpeded; the investments the EU makes into deprived areas; the rules and regulations it has introduced that make our air and beaches cleaner, our products safer and more environmentally friendly, and our worker's rights extended and upheld.
Unfortunately, after a campaign based on lies, our current government (who may not even be a legitimate government, if accusations of electoral fraud are upheld), is hell bent on implementing the results of an advisory referendum with a narrow majority, achieved on the basis of a pack of lies.
There will be no money for the NHS. We won't get a better deal - we had the best one. We were already able to trade with other countries ... as part of a massive trading block. If we have to cut a deal with India, it will mean more Indian immigrants ... and I thought leavers didn't want any more immigrants. Prices are rising and the cost of Brexit is going to sap money and take away attention from other areas of need (health and education!). The pound is weak - and given our lack of manufacturing, this is not actually helpful. Confidence in Britain is low - diplomatically we look at best like idiots, and at worst like arseh*les.
Given this situation, I wish for the least damage to be done - so stay in the EEA and be like Norway. Stupid of course - as this give us no influence, but it seems like damage limitation at this point.

I've just been at an embassy briefing supposedly to keep us all informed, give us the chance to ask questions and be a bit reassuring I suppose.

What an absolute fucking joke. Every question asked by people seriously worried about their futures was answered very politely with a variation of 'haven't got the foggiest'. Asked what the plan is if in 2019 we all suddenly have no legal status, 'there's no plan at the moment but we are working on it and are confident that we will have some sort of plan in place by 2019 should we need it'. Yep, that'll help us all sleep tonight.

Jellybeanz the FCO did a "live" thing on FB today, for UK citizens living in the EU, and it was exactly the same - poor FCO woman was unable to answer any of the questions asked. I wasn't able to listen in as it was during working hours but it sounds like I didnt miss much.

Then there was the alternate reality moment. We're told that the UK will be conducting the exit negotiations alongside the trade negotiations. Someone pointed out that the EU have already clearly and firmly ruled this out. This was met with a 'Yes but we don't think that's how it should be because of x, y and z.' WTF So negotiating strategy is just ignore what we're told and carry on regardless.

"What a sneeringly superior & shitty opinion you have of British people."

What seems to be forgotten is that we have an aging population. Many people would be physically unable to do some of the jobs going now - they need younger people with stamina.

Larry - even if what you say is true - that we can start coal mining again and getting oil out of deeper waters etc - we would have had to have started doing these things already if we were going to hit the ground running in March 2019. We haven't even started building a lorry park in Kent to deal with all the customs admin that will be needed in about 22 months time

I don't know much about customs infrastructure, but I know a lot about big capital projects and my guess would be that if we started now, our ports would be hard-brexit-proof in about 7 years (we'll have to hope that the French start work at Calais simultaneously of course - though they have less of a space issue; it would just be a question of software upgrades and extra staff).

As for new coal mines and deep oil wells, let's just say that wouldn't be in my 10 year forecast ;)

30 second google at the bus stop

www.gov.uk/child-employment/restrictions-on-child-employment

The only one of these I question is the 2 hr restriction on a Sunday. I think it would make more sense to specify a maximum over the weekend. The website doesn't tell me if this is an EU imposed restriction or a Uk rule. Anyone know?

Interestingly beyond the blanket restriction on industrial work, the restrictions are in fact imposed by local councils! So probably nothing to do with the EU.

The EU quite rightly has laws covering child workers, but national law may go further (as the UK's rules appear to do).

MO4D the FCO Q&A "live" session is on their facebook page.

What seems to be forgotten is that we have an aging population. Many people would be physically unable to do some of the jobs going now - they need younger people with stamina.
And some jobs require a mobile population (eg. agriculture) and aren't ideal for people who have roots and commitments/responsibilities in one place.

They are struggling financially against the two or three top ivy league unis but there are no European universities in serious competition with them.
I believe ETH Zurich is in the top ten. With a number of Universities teaching courses in English, particularly post graduate courses, who can say whether Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Imperial will retain their status? I believe that applications from India are down substantially, which is no surprise given May's attitude towards immigration, and increasingly Canada and Australia are looking like attractive options to their students.

Yes, ETH Zurich is top ten & will just keep going up as they have way more money for research than Oxford or Cambridge. According to the academics I know, the "rankings" are also deeply flawed, UK centric and don't necessarily reflect reality.

Sir Ian Wood's 2014 report outlines some of the big challenges in maximisinggn economic recovery of what remains of the oil and gas fields in the UK Continental Shelf. Worth a read for anyone who thinks there is any low-hanging fruit left there.

As for coal - the last deep mines to close only closed in 2015, because they weren't profitable. Domestic consumption is a fifth of what it was 40 years ago and isn't going anywhere but down, and internationally we have no chance of being competitive against the open cast remote mine giants. Word coal consumption is predicted to plateau to at least 2021 (IEA) with demand strongly focused on Asian markets as developed countries move to cleaner fuels.

Carolinesbeanies
I think you'll find my home nation is very involved in negotiations. But my ire is still directed at the country that has changed from being a neighbour and a natural choice for me to make home, without having to give up a major part of my identity, to an inhospital landing point where people still tell me that 'I'm not really an immigrant'

In the absence of your home nations stepping up, you are left with TM doing all she can to protect your interests. If you dont want her help. Then fine. If you dont want the UK to fight your corner, then fine.
The problem is, I don't believe she is doing all she can to protect the interests of all British citizens. And I'm not talking about me here. Taking immigration out of it, there are some serious potential fallout from Brexit which was never discussed during the campaign, by either side, and doesn't seem to be being discussed right now. The absolute lack of fucks seemingly given about NI is deeply, deeply concerning.

Just addressing the crap first....

"I'm sure the indigenous workforce will be falling over themselves to take these jobs."

"Is it or is it not a fact that many EU immigrants are employed in roles that traditionally UK workers do not do?"

"Can someone remind me why those jobs aren't filled by 'native brits'??"

"Wonder how many people who'd turn their nose up at a meat packing job voted Leave."

How dare you throw around ridiculous ascertions that the british refuse to do menial work, and that its clearly beneath them. Lets get real shall we.

Employment figures as at Feb 2017

1.7 mill in Accomodation and Food services
4.1 mill in human health and social work activities
1.6 mill in transport and storage
4.2 in wholesale and retail
2.3 in construction
2.9 in manufacturing
etc etc etc

All adding up to 32 mill workers in the UK.

We have 3 million EU nationals living here. Lets assume shall we, every one of those EU nationals is working. Lets assume, shall we, every one of those is not claiming benefits. Thats 10% of the workforce. Thats a huge number. (though the ONS disputes this as they believe its nearer 2.2, but considering any mention of an EU national claiming benefits here, will send you lot into self combusting meltdown, lets pretend there arent any. Im happy, for the sake of argument, to go with EU nationals in the UK are in 100% employment)

You utterly disregard the 90% working along side you. For every 'shitty arse' an EU national has wiped, 9 UK nationals are doing exactly the same. 90%. (And I really have been massively over generous to you on that figure)

Making the claim that its the eu nationals who are digging out our shitty sewers, and staffing our care sector, because brits wont do it, is quite simply an unfounded effort to paint an utterly offensive picture of british nationals. Oh, and its nice to see 'Little Englanders' is still being bandied about.

www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbyindustryemp13/current/emp13feb2017.xls

"A lot of the 3 millions actually have settle down in the UK and are married to British people.
I'm not sure about the numbers but as rough guide, 5% of the population is in a transnational marriage. That's about 3 millions people. Assuming half of the immigrants in the uk are EU nationals, that's 1.5 millions.
So if you send away all the eu citizens, younwill send away 3 million people PLUS 1.5 millions Brits (their partners) PLUS about 3 millions children (assuming the average is two children per couple).
That's 7.5 millions people or more than 10% of the population."

This is utter utter bollocks. Apart from your 'pick a number' approach, youve assumed, all 3 million eu nationals living here arrived within the last 3 years, half of them then married a brit, and they then managed to pop out 2 children. Ignoring this phenomenally quick turn in fortunes from whatever life they were living 3 years ago in whatever home nation they came from, who one earth has ever said, lets kick out eu nationals living here? Who? Who in their right mind, takes a desire to control ongoing immigration, and turns it into 'youre kicking out all foreigners'? Who does that, apart from someone hell bent on inciting some form of divisive hatred or desiring to promote scaremongering mis-information?

The majority of eu nationals living in the UK have the right to permanent residency. The majority. It costs £65. Thats it.

Those here shorter than the perm residency criteria, will indeed have to wait to see what Brexit means for them. Yes, this impacts some, but clearly not the raft of eu nationals, you wish to perceive.

Dear me Caroline, you're awfully angry.

How about the industries that have said they will have face labour shortages if immigration from the EU does fall in line with the under 100,000 target? There are lots of evidence of those.

There is also evidence that in places where unemployment was higher than the national average, some businesses in sectors identified, failed to fill all their vacancies. There is repeated points from businesses saying this, despite even offering higher than average wages.

Also if you look at the data below, there are significantly more immigrants of all types employed in many industries, far more than is proportionate to their size of the population. So yes immigrants leaving or falling is likely to effect these industries.

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-labour-market-an-overview/

Also no one says that there are no EU citizens on benefits, just that they are under represented about 2.5% of all JSA claimants are EU citizens, where as they make up about 10% of the workforce, so they are under represented.

About 7% of all couples in the UK comprise of 1 UK national, and 1 migrant.

The stuff about the nationalisation process being £65? Well they didn't need it till now, and probably still won't, actually I'll go as far to say definitely won't.

The UK is/was a net huge contributor to the EU.

The UK is a huge market (even Juncker - reluctantly - admits this).

The UK has an enormous influence on world politics (see comments from... Trump, Junker, Merkel, Xi Jinping and Putin).

Comparisons with Norway or Canada or anywhere else are meaningless.