Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

Please see my post...
I worked 8 hours for £5
And I wasn't the only one

...and I left after I refused to go up an unsafe ladder and clean windows
I was 14

How about the fact that the cost of having a 15 year old employee on the premises is significantly more through insurance than older employees.

Even in a supermarket or restaurant you are limited to the tasks they can do, and they can only work limited hours. These are significant barriers to employment.

Won't kids just end up taking jobs from adult Brits. Kids will be cheaper to employ? Next divide and conquer?

I worked 8 hours for £5
And I wasn't the only one

Totally different experience of after school/Saturday jobs to me then.

I averaged about £3 per hour across various jobs at 14-16 (1989-1991)

The younger members of our family work in care, factory work and retail. I am sick of the sneering "British people don't want to do that sort of work". There are a great number of British people doing these jobs, working damned hard. I hate the fact it's seen as work that should be 'beneath' them. My niece loves working as a carer, as a single parent the hours fit and she enjoys helping the elderly. She takes pride in her job and doesn't see it as being beneath her?!

pot washing

Most restaurants/pubs employ kitchen porters to do this, who will knock out 12 hour shifts as service goes on.

Cleaning: Most 15 year olds are at school when cleaners are needed during the week,, they're also not allowed to work with certain chemicals.

There are lots of other reasons why they don't get jobs in hospitality, the limitations on how many hours they can work during the school term etc.

Lynn, I don't think its that all British folk will turn their noses up at that sort of employment, just many of these sectors had vacancies at the same time as there was higher unemployment before FOM started.

This does suggest an unwillingness of some people to take those jobs.

As I said, now that we are at the UK rate of full employment (5% unemployment) who is going to fill the vacancies without immigration?

Danny, I know all about the barriers to under 16s getting jobs.

My point is that it's fucking ridiculous.

At 14/15 there is no reason that my eldest shouldn't do a Saturday/after school/school holiday job - but he can't because of the draconian rules about employing school children.

But apparently it's 'exploitative' for 14/15 yr olds to do waiting/retail jobs according to posters here

To answer the OP, I'd like to follow Switzerland's lead, and when we realise how detrimental it will be to our country to 'Brexit' at all costs, to reverse course. As the Swiss did: even after they'd had a referendum and there was a narrow win to put quotas on (i.e. limit) EU immigration, when it became clear access to the single market (and other stuff like research funding too) was reliant on Freedom of movement (i.e. the EU wouldn’t back down - and this was with a country that has never even been part of the EU!) they dropped it. www.politico.eu/article/switzerland-retreats-from-migration-quotas-in-lesson-for-brexit/

I'd also like all those leavers who kept on banging on about the Swiss model to admit they were wrong, and that if we were really to follow 'the swiss model' now, that would mean freedom of movement at a minimum (at which point we might as well stay a member of the EU as then at least we'd still get a vote).

Your 15 year old can do a job, but as far as I can tell just looking at the laws.

They can't work before 7 am or after 7pm. Lets be honest that second one rules out most restaurants and hotels for the kind of work that 16 and unders can do.

For more than 4 hours without taking a break of one hour.

2 hours on schools days or sundays.

For 15-16 year olds 8 hours on Satudays.

I think these are perfectly fine restrictions on child labour tbh and it does stop them being exploited.

Just pull the kids from school, repeal employee protections. We needs more 15 yr old pot washers and less experts anyway...

We're just a typical working class family; a job is a job and bills need to be paid. I've never met anyone round here that would refuse a job if it meant going hungry.

Three members of my family started at the bottom at aged 16 and worked their way up through the ranks to management level, earning 40k ish each a year. I'm proud of them which is why the sneering towards the British about which jobs they will or won't do to be offensive.

Some of us have no choice but we get on with it.

Semi I would actually say that the LAW, so our MPs etc, is saying its exploitative., hence the very strict regulation.
In that particular case, whatever MNters think doesn't quite matter.

And yes the rules are here because otherwise some people (employers or parents) would have no hesitation to send their dcs to work at all hours regardless of the consequences for their work at school. (When this should be their top priority at that age).

Rules are there to protect and TBH, in that case, they are very much needed.

15 year olds can get paper rounds or wash neighbours cars. The migrants haven't took all those jobs have they?

Do pint out where I even alluded to paper rounds or car washing, thanks ever so.

No one accused you of alluding to these jobs, Semi, you misunderstand.

Just pull the kids from school, repeal employee protections. We needs more 15 yr old pot washers and less experts anyway...

Yet another example of snotty, sneery superiority.

'Err not so much oil - any that does might stay in Scotland should that leave. The remaining coal we have is too expensive to mine, and anyway we shouldn't be using fossil fuels any longer.
The rivers would need a hell of a lot of investment to get them up to speed in providing hydroelectric power. And an awful lot of time. If it were even possible.
Finance - well we need the passporting to continue and already companies are making noises about moving their offices out of the country.'

This is the kind of post I absolutely expected in response to mine and, like all good arguments, it is at least founded on truth. Oil is running out and, at current prices, a lot of it is not exploitable. However, increasing technology is allowing us to access more oil at lower cost. In addition, it is unlikely that oil will stay this cheap for very long. Coal is a long term resource and will, at some point, be economical again (unless alternatives become much cheaper). As for Scotland getting the oil, firstly I think it very unlikely they will ever become independent and, secondly, it is debatable legally to whom the oil belongs.

As for our universities, the kudos of studying at Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial and, to a lesser extent LSE and others, will remain. They are struggling financially against the two or three top ivy league unis but there are no European universities in serious competition with them. They are global hubs of learning and no Brexit deal would stop the best and brightest globally from coming to study there.

As for the City and passporting. Yes, some jobs will go but these are most likely to be back office (and maybe some middle office). There is no desire amongst the top earners to relocate from a global city to Paris, Frankfurt or Brussels, particularly as there is not one clear alternative and it would mean spreading out in a geographically diversified way across Europe. The City and Wall Street also have some of the best oiled lobby machines in the world and I am confident on this basis that the City will retain the vast majority of what it does now (and please don't quote me about people saying that they are going to leave, that is all part of the lobbying process).

Momentum and inertia play a huge role in decision making and the idea that huge chunks of the economy will decamp to Europe I just find highly unlikely (as per the threats before the 50% tax rate and the actual number of moves after it).

We are not a tin pot economy. We are not a superpower (clearly) any more but the idea that we have nothing without membership (as opposed to access to) the single market is also a very exaggerated and negative perspective.

What a sneeringly superior & shitty opinion you have of British people.
Yes, of course, Semi. But then I'm one of those elitist snowflakes, aren't I?

Weren't EU applications to Cambridge down almost 10% this year?

optional, I dropped out of the other Brexit threads as it was just going over the same old stuff and posters getting upset with each other. In a recent post you spelt Farridge as I do, so thought you deserved a response to your question.

I'll mention I've been a Eurosceptic since voting No in 1975 and was not best pleased when Maggie gave in '84 agreeing to the Market being expanded and ensuring the French got their way on CAP.

However, at the last minute I voted Remain. What do I want?

I want Parliament to implement the referendum vote – that is we leave the EU so that we can stop blaming others for our problems.

I want to see £350million extra money a week going to the NHS with the caveat it only goes to front line services not admin, management or external (non medical) consultants.

I want to see an end to the petty arguments that produced so many contradictions; gaining the sovereignty of Parliament yet we never lost it apparently; there never being any regulation about straight bananas and all the stuff about health and safety etc., etc., being blamed on the EU.

Having said that I would like to see a list of all the regulations that the UK started in Brussels as well as those that were advisory but we made compulsory.

What I'd like to see (quite different from my wants) is someone such as David Davies – bit of a Del Boy in my opinion and thus suited for the job – to get on with it and let the Prime Minister to take control of the problems we have in this country, housing, social care, NHS, education and so on.

I'm sure there's a lot more, but on a sunny afternoon that'll do for now

As for our universities, the kudos of studying at Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial and, to a lesser extent LSE and others, will remain. They are struggling financially against the two or three top ivy league unis but there are no European universities in serious competition with them. They are global hubs of learning and no Brexit deal would stop the best and brightest globally from coming to study there. this is just wrong - as Sapphire has pointed out international student applications are already down and we haven't even left yet. Kudos doesn't mean much if it's cheaper and better to study in Europe / the US. There are great European Universities that outperform the top UK universities easily now, and the gap will only widen as research funding continues to dry up (the uk has been underspending for years - 1.7% of uk gdp on science research compared to about 3% in germany, the us etc) . If you look at the evidence given by the university sector to the education select committee the unanimous consensus is that it will be at best very difficult and at worst catastrophic.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/foreign-student-numbers-plummeting-in-wake-of-brexit-a7596186.html
www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/brexit-vote-sees-cambridge-university-12438974
www.wired.co.uk/article/science-funding-budget-increase-uk-report
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/education-committee/news-parliament-2015/brexit-higher-education-evidence-16-17/

'We haven't even started building a lorry park in Kent to deal with all the customs admin that will be needed in about 22 months time.'

This is where you are not being realistic. Both sides have admitted to needing a transition regime. There is a minimal probability of the above happening. It would be the result of a catastrophic breakdown in the negotiations.

I'm PMSL at the idea of rebuilding the UK economy on coal mining. I've spent over a quarter of a century working as a resources/ minerals economist. Not to get too technical about it, mines take fucking ages to build, often at a capital cost that runs into 8 or 9 figures, frequently end up not making any money, and all too often kill the people who work in them (either from accidents or industrial illnesses). And unless they are very tightly regulated they are an absolute disaster for the environment.