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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

OP posts:
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HesterThrale · 11/04/2017 09:42

Yes Swedish I agree with most of that Barnes article. Long but very readable. Thanks.

Will we be 'morally depleted by cutting ourselves off from Europe and sheltering beneath Trump's fragrant armpit?'

Yes. Think also Turkey, Saudi, Philippines..... seriously?? What is happening to us?

'Do we seriously believe that Mrs May will construct 'a country that works for everyone?'

No Julian, a lot of us don't. How long will it take for the realisation to hit 'those who voted for Brexit'?

He's right. 'The old winners will be the new, even bigger winners.'

whatwouldrondo · 11/04/2017 10:37

I can't see that anyone picked up this? It is the fail on Sunday and the other papers haven't picked it up, but perhaps because they are focused elsewhere. Diplomats to focus on trade, the environment and animal welfare issues such as the Ivory trade to drop out of the priorities (which is going to upset some very posh and influential people)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4394350/UK-trade-secrets-spotted-7-22.html

Badders123 · 11/04/2017 11:08

That really depresses me tbh

People who have no issue with the collapse of NHS, adult social care and children living in poverty will only start to complain once animals start to be killed in greater numbers

Sigh

BigChocFrenzy · 11/04/2017 11:38

DM comments say it's all the fault of the "Remoaners" for not accepting the result

< I don't understand why our behaviour makes the need for trade so desperate.
Some new economic theory that trade balance is determined by the level of moaning, not quality / price of goods ?
Or do they mean noone would have noticed the need for new trading agreements if we weren't moaning >

BigChocFrenzy · 11/04/2017 11:47

Polls show most Leavers won't accept responsibility if Brexit goes badly

Main culprit of course will be the EU, for not giving us a good deal
Remainers will be easier to get at though, than someone in Brussels or Berlin: "Enemies of the People," living near you.

Do most people really go through life believing that if they don't get all they want, then others are behaving badly for not giving it all to them ? Confused

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 12:19

Yes I think so.

On another thread Caroline is blaming the EU for not allowing a 3rd option, like Norway, which seems bizarre as a Norway option has been rejected by the Government and the main leave supporters. She's blaming the EU 27 countries for not negotiating regarding citizens rights, when they were only following protocol for leaving as set out in article 50.

She also blames the EU for not allowing a 3rd question on the ballot paper?

It seems that when we don't get the cake and eat it option the EU will be blamed.

Lets be honest the whole leave EU campaign was about being able to blame someone else for your plight or the state of the nation, so many of those that voted leave won't be able to change tack now.

Bolshybookworm · 11/04/2017 12:31

I think this is a very British* trait, bigchoc. Hence why the British public moan endlessly about public services but refuse to pay the necessary tax to fund them.

*Disclaimer- I'm as English as they come, before the xenophobes start up

whatwouldrondo · 11/04/2017 12:50

Do most people really go through life believing that if they don't get all they want, then others are behaving badly for not giving it all to them ?

I m afraid that was the conclusion I reached when I returned to the UK with a fresh perspective after living in Asia. It was long before Brexit but as a nation we seemed to be bloody grumpy about something that came out in all sorts of small ways. After you have lived in a culture where respect for each other is important and failing to offer that is seen as diminishing the person being rude not the person being insulted , it all seemed very dismal. Little did I know just how much more dismal it could get.....

PattyPenguin · 11/04/2017 13:49

Poll reported on the Guardian www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/11/half-of-young-adults-in-the-uk-do-not-feel-european-demos-survey

Bit of a mixed bag.

I haven't found the actual poll / report on the British Council or Demos websites with a quick search - no time to dig any deeper, have to get back to work.

Apologies if already posted.

HashiAsLarry · 11/04/2017 15:07

Don't think this has been posted but as proof that even is project fear fans haven't seen all possible brexit fallouts, this has to be one I never thought I'd see and is totally my story of the day

brexit discount on divorce

lalalonglegs · 11/04/2017 16:14

I think Mr Mansfield is very confused, hashi - surely his Kent business is going to be flourishing and worth a lot more now that he will be unshackled from his near neighbours in the EU and able to transport his fruit to NZ and Australia and Canada and India.... what do you mean they have their own fruit growers Shock?

Motheroffourdragons · 11/04/2017 16:16

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HashiAsLarry · 11/04/2017 16:19

Ha lala I suspect he may get stoned by the locals for not towing the line Grin
apologies to Kent remainers of course

Motheroffourdragons · 11/04/2017 16:30

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Mistigri · 11/04/2017 17:22

Good to know that these Brexiters are actually National Front sympathisers.

Of course they are. But they're not racist at all, oh no.

Macron-fanboy DH pointed out something I hadn't noticed: because Macron doesn't really have any skeletons in his 30-something cupboard, his detractors like to call him a "Rothschild banker". Not just any banker, but a Rothschild one. It's obvious once it's pointed out to you, but it's clear dog-whistle anti-semitism, and you see it even in some quite surprising places.

SwedishEdith · 11/04/2017 17:22

Brexiters supporting Le Pen, Farage with a French mistress. Hmm.

Before mn's Trump fangirl was banned, she/he said they'd support any far-right party if it meant getting out of the EU so I'm not remotely surprised by this. Tbh, I assumed that might have been the point when mn decided they'd had enough.

SwedishEdith · 11/04/2017 17:24

Oh, yes, Rothschild (and Soros) is always code for something else.

Arborea · 11/04/2017 19:14

I actually thought that this essay from the current LRB was even more on point about Brexit (and is the first thing to make me have some sympathy for Leavers!): www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n08/james-meek/somerdale-to-skarbimierz

It's very long, but worth persisting with. A few choice quotes for those who are pressed for time though!

"Whatever they are doing... Ukip and the English nationalist wing of the Tory Party are doing politics. New Labour [and] the Tory neoliberal wing... have drifted into something else. Most shareholder-owned multinationals, away from their home countries, attempted to opt out of culture a long time ago. Instead of forcibly reminding them that they were always part of local culture, whether they wanted to be or not, parties like... New Labour followed business, and began treating economics and culture as two separate things. Out of power, the separation continues, manifesting itself as a split between those waiting for the populists to be destroyed by economic disaster, and those who protest, reactively and sequentially, against each new cultural outrage."

"Multinational manufacturers of consumer goods cut their costs to the bone, sweating their wage and pension bill and buying up robots to deliver yield to the pension funds and sovereign wealth funds and hedge funds and wealthy families that own them; but who then will be able to afford the consumer goods? Those people who work for the other guy? But the other guy is doing the same thing."

Motheroffourdragons · 11/04/2017 19:20

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Mistigri · 11/04/2017 19:53

MO4D still v hard to come up with a scenario in which Le Pen wins or even comes close to winning. Polling of second-round voting intentions puts her 5-10 points behind Fillon, around 20 points behind Macron or Melenchon. French polling is usually quite accurate, but even if it isn't, those are very large margins (whereas both Trump and Brexit polling was within the error margin ie the polls were not "wrong").

Ironically, attacking Macron makes it more likely that we get a Green ex-communist president Grin.

You can't bet on elections in France but even if you could, not sure who I'd back. I'd out money on Le Pen losing though.

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:11

Two things.

The neo liberals are the right wing of the Tory party in charge, that analysis is wrong, look at who backs the low regulation, low tax economy and that's those are backing the hardest brexit.

Secondly, for all the denials of racism and prejudice, its funny just how many of the brexit arms regulars were backing Geert Wilders, The Austrian right wing, and now Le Pen etc. Gleefuly rubbing their hands in their hopes for the downfall of the EU, but backing racists in order to get their goal.

LynnsSnazzyCardigan · 11/04/2017 20:21

Danny, could you please link to the pages in the Brexit Arms where people are championing Wilders, Le Pen?

I've seen silliness in there with regards to Farage, but nothing more sinister? I may lurk in the main but I've honestly missed whatever it is you're talking about and I do try to keep up with both sides of the debate (to the detriment of my laundry pile!).

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:24

I'm not going to trawl through it, but there are some ( not all) posters who were quite frankly gleeful and full of support for Wilders and Le Pen etc. More so for the colapse of the EU to be fair, but still support for them. Backing for Trump in his travel ban etc was shown by a few there too.

My laundry pile has gone abandoned for a week or so. Much to the disgust of 3 teenage DDs. Doesn't matter anyway, most of the stuff on their floors is clean cause they can't be bothered to put it away.

prettybird · 11/04/2017 20:25

It took me a whole to "get" that neo-liberal didn't mean what I thought it meant Confused

Here in the UK, "liberal" tends to mean "left of centre", societal and not authoritarian, whereas the term "neo liberal" comes from the states where the "liberal" means "liberated from nasty Big Government" (and neo liberal even more so Hmm - with extra austerity Shock)

So when a European Liberal is talking to a Neo Liberal, they are coming from totally different planets perspectives. Confused

Peregrina · 11/04/2017 20:29

I was always baffled by the neo-liberal tag, since to me Liberal is essentially centrist but with a slight leaning towards the left, so thanks for explaining. What would be a better term for the UK?