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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

OP posts:
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Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:29

Neo liberal refers to the economic stance, people who are tend to be about low government intervention in markets, low taxation, low to no levels of public provision of services etc.

Its essentially those who think the market should be left to deal with any problems.

prettybird · 11/04/2017 20:31

Far Right? Wink

WrongTrouser · 11/04/2017 20:33

Secondly, for all the denials of racism and prejudice, its funny just how many of the brexit arms regulars were backing Geert Wilders, The Austrian right wing, and now Le Pen etc. Gleefuly rubbing their hands in their hopes for the downfall of the EU, but backing racists in order to get their goal

Danny I think you need to list names and quotes or retract this and apologise.

Just saying "I can't be bothered" is not good enough.

LynnsSnazzyCardigan · 11/04/2017 20:35

Thanks Danny. I read every day and definitely haven't seen any outright general support for Le Pen etc, a few theories that the EU might collapse but definitely no one cheering on fascists, which is why your post jumped out at me. Because I'd delurk and jump on anything like that, if it was being said in the name of Leave voters.

Yes, teenagers....I'm the proud owner of 2 teenage DDs and a football mad DS so I know exactly what you mean about finding clothes scattered all over the place Grin

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:37

not going to retract, there was plenty of support shown for Le Pen etc, as I made specifically clear this was to do with the collapse of the EU, but there was support.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2017 20:47

Sean Spicer this evening:
"We didn’t use chemical weapons in World War II. We had someone as despicable as Hitler who didn’t even sink to using chemical weapons."
"When you come to sarin gas he was not using the gas on his own people the same way that Assad is doing."
“He brought them to the Holocaust center, I understand that."

Its like the Holocaust revisionist twilight world, where concerntration camps and gas chambers become ok, cos they weren't just used on everyone and instead were used at shiny white nice buildings.

OP posts:
Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:49

"he was not using the gas on his own people the same way that Assad is doing."

So the German Jews killed in the gas chambers don't count?

WrongTrouser · 11/04/2017 20:50

I think the fact that you are not able to quote says it all.

I have to say, I really question your motives on these threads Danny. They have been running for months. They have gone through phases of being more or less heated and unpleasant. The majority of posters on both "sides" are now civil to each other (many have always been, there is no reason not to be). Many, many posts have recognised and deplored the huge division which, however one voted, we can see in the country. Most people don't think this division is a good thing.

You have recently started posting on these threads and the majority of your posts seemed to be criticising either leave voters or more specifically leave posters. You have called us racist and xenophobic and implied stupid, and now you are throwing the far-right slur at everyone in the Arms (because that is what you are doing by the way you have posted).

I really don't know what you are trying to achieve, but I think you should question your own motives.

And by the way, throwing insults and slurs is not going to convince anyone with half a brain cell.

SwedishEdith · 11/04/2017 20:52

Liberal is one of the most misused words around at the moment. Economic liberalism is largely unfettered free-markets hence the yellow Tory tags for the old Liberal party. But social liberalism is embracing diversity of people and life-styles etc. So, liberalism itself is can be left or right, politically. Libertarianism is just a further extension of that idea.

WrongTrouser · 11/04/2017 20:54

and Danny have you heard of fake news? And dog whistling?

So you start off saying lots of the Arms regulars support the far right in Austria and Geert Wilder and le Pen. Now you are backtracking and saying, well they were discussing le Pen in the context of the collapse of the EU.

Fake news, false facts, dog whistling. But I suppose you just hope some of it sticks. But to what end? What do you achieve? Don't bother answering.

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 20:54

www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/11/student-loan-interest-rate-rise-uk-inflation-brexit?CMP=fb_gu

Students and graduates will pay higher interest rates on loans thanks to the impact of Brexit.

woman12345 · 11/04/2017 20:56

RTB, thanks for posting, and thanks for earlier posts on Macron slurs. Spicer's comments are on Passover too.

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 21:02

"I think the fact that you are not able to quote says it all. "

Really, to trawl back through thousands of posts to find the bits where people showed support for Wilders or Le Pen ? You know as well as I do that the caveat that I've used here is that they supported these people in order to hasten the collapse of the EU! I haven't accused anyone of racism because of it, just that they showed support for those that are.

"criticising either leave voters or more specifically leave posters. You have called us racist and xenophobic and implied stupid, and now you are throwing the far-right slur at everyone in the Arms"

Ah see, this is your problem.

The defensive position of many leave voters is that if accuse some of them of being racist or xenephobic they imply that its all of them in order to discredit your argument this is not the case.

In my points I've said that those who said democracy and sovereignty were the reasons, and then objected to the democratic process being followed, have other darker reasons for voting to leave.

That those who brought up TTIP and now advocate deals with the US, those that highlight the plight of Greece but object to refugees coming here and YES those that object to FOM yet are unable to offer any real reasons other than the usual tropes, yes they are voting out because of their prejudices.

I'm sorry if you can't tell the difference, but I think you can, and your attempt to simplify the argument down to that I'm calling all leavers racist is a poor rebuttal.

HashiAsLarry · 11/04/2017 21:11

Ah, Sean Spicer - the gift that keeps on giving Hmm

BluePeppersAndBroccoli · 11/04/2017 21:16

mother thanks for the link on how top brexiters are supporting LePen.

Tbh I'm not surprised.
I'm sure we've talked about it before but Brexit happened in a background of the EU being in its last leg and ready to collapse.
LePen is just another confirmation that they are right even if they are actually wrong. It's only in the Uk that's people are convinced the EU is on the verge of collapsing

WrongTrouser · 11/04/2017 21:17

I'm sorry if you can't tell the difference, but I think you can, and your attempt to simplify the argument down to that I'm calling all leavers racist is a poor rebuttal

No, what you do is you throw out a blanket slur at leave voters or the leave posters on MN, and then, in subsequent posts, you backtrack, add in corollaries and "oh, I didn't mean all" "oh, I meant some, not all" etc, etc. I've seen you do it on a number of referendum threads.

It's quite clear what you are doing. There are two possibilities.

One is that you don't think carefully before posting blanket smears against leave voters, and don't consider whether your comment is true or not and if it's not, whether it is helpful or reasonable to insult people you don't even know.

The other is that you know exactly what you are doing and you are just going for throw enough crap at leavers and some will stick.

Neither reflects very well on you.

HashiAsLarry · 11/04/2017 21:25

Had a quick advance search, found a section on Brexit Arms regarding Wilders election being key to the downfall of the EU following the BBC documentary mentioned on here several hundred threads back about Southern europe. There's some gleeful posts intertwined with a lot of stuff about how Remainers refuse to see any negatives in the EU so won't react to the documentary at all. Which was of course bullshit as even those of us on here did.

You can't accuse us of being one homogeneous group of bad things whilst we accuse you of it. Its our job to label. We won after all. And you remainers have to put up with it Hmm

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 21:26

I said from the start that I had thought that saying leave voters who claimed their vote was about democracy but then attacked the high court and supreme court ruling were dubious. In no way does this say all leave voters unless all leave voters did this.

So I had specified that people that do a specific thing, I think used democracy and sovereignty to cover up the real reasons for their vote, yet you then equate that with all leave voters.

"Neither reflects very well on you."

Thanks. Neither does the company you keep.

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 21:31

Thanks Hashi,

See that Wrong. I'll have my apology please.

WrongTrouser · 11/04/2017 21:34

Neither does the company you keep

I'll leave you to your little one-person hatefest Danny. The fact that you can write a sentence like that, presumably applicable to 17.4 million UK citizens, as well as me, well, says it all Hmm

HPFA · 11/04/2017 21:42

I found this on a Facebook page posted by someone working in a homeless centre

I volunteer in a shelter for homeless and vulnerable people. Yesterday, I overheard one of the visitors, a man in his late forties who has been on the streets for 20 years, say he 'couldn't wait to leave the EU as it meant he would finally get a house'.

There seemed something inexpressibly sad about this. If people voted Leave because being out of the EU was more important to them than anything else then, whilst I don't understand why you feel like that, at least you'll be happy whether our economic situation worsens or not. But all those people voting Leave because they genuinely believed it would somehow make their own situation better? How long will they be able to hang on to that belief?

Lico · 11/04/2017 21:45

Marine Le Pen's problem is her father. Many French people remember him as a torturer during the Algerian war and an Holocaust denier. Farage and Banks are oblivious to the murky waters of French politics. Marine will win the first round but lose the second one. The Le Pen family is associated with facism and many French (as well as other EU countries) have lived under fascism and will not want to repeat the experience,

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…
Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 21:49

"presumably applicable to 17.4 million UK citizens, as well as me, well, says it all hmm"

No hmm it was aimed directly at you,

Its no hate fest at all, its been explained numerous times, yet the only response it gets is "you're calling all leavers racist". Its been explained several times that its not the case, but that if you fit a set of conditions then I'm going to call the given reasons for your vote to leave into question.

But no, it comes back again: " Your calling all leavers racist", and then I explain again but round and round we go, without the conditions I've set ever being discussed, just back to the "all leavers point" .

I'll leave you to your circular arguments.

Bolshybookworm · 11/04/2017 22:17

I saw some fairly flagrant islamophobia on my one trip to the Brexit arms, it was extremely unpleasant. It was at the time of the first trump travel ban and was blatant and unapologetic. I havent been back on those threads since- I know we're supposed to listen to a range of views but when those views start to sound like they're from the EDL or Britain First then they cease to be legitimate to my ears.

Dannythechampion · 11/04/2017 22:32

I must say that even when made the statement about the brexit arms i said: " just how many of the brexit arms regulars " so clearly not all.

It seems to be a default position of SOME leave voters that when those issues regarding the leave vote are raised, they start saying that were calling them all racists. Its quite clear that this isn't the case.