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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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9
Mistigri · 17/04/2017 11:44

howabout

Re French labour market participation, I would guess that is because of earlier retirement and relatively easier access to retirement on grounds of disabilility. Whether this is a bad thing or not will depend on your political POV.

The idea that immigrants are the "lowest rung in the economy" is both false and offensive (speaking an immigrant myself).

whatwouldrondo · 17/04/2017 11:45

In my town it is not just Starbucks, the best English breakfast is served by a Dane, the best "artisan baked on the premises" bread, along with Pizza and Italian breakfast is baked by an Italian, several independent coffee shops are run by Italians Lebanese and Iranians. The other bakeries are run by an Hungarian and a German. The best restaurants are run by a Malaysian, Italians, Greek, Indian, Spanish, Turkish, Polish and Moroccans. The only successful business on our High Street that is run by a British person is the Fishmonger and he is gay so probably for the High jump in post Brexit, all difference is bad, Britain. Our High Street has a problem as it is with too many empty properties and charity shops as a result of high rents and rates, in part the result of a Council who seem determined to shit on our community in favour of its richer more influential friends. If we lose EU FOM it is going to be very difficult to keep our sense of community going around a dying high Street...... .

whatwouldrondo · 17/04/2017 11:51

Sorry forgot the estate agents, but can't see the likes of Foxtons carrying on making money with their Arthur Daley business model, as house prices collapse....

Fawful · 17/04/2017 12:04

Howabout many at Starbucks/in hospitality will be students, whether from the EU or not. They're also not stuck on the NMW, it's possible to be promoted and earn more, as a start to a career. A full-time restaurant waiter will earn £18,000 (tips are taxed too). which is Apparently the median salary in the U.K.

SapphireStrange · 17/04/2017 12:05

I reckon the people who are complaining, and hoping it won't happen are either nationals of another EU country living here or people who have a relative who is from EU.

Just weighing in to say sorry, Copper, for your theory, but I'm British too. Blaack Country on one side, for as far back as anyone's managed to trace, and English and Scots/Irish on the other. Sadly the Irishness is too far back to qualify me for citizenship.

It may be hard for you to grasp, but some people care about the big picture and about those who will be worst affected even if we are probably not among them.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2017 12:13

This question about why we "need" Starbucks seems to come from the same superior disapproval as why we need McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut etc.
Or kebab and curry takeaways, mistly owned and staffed by < horror > non-white immigrants
Sometimes used, along with iPhones, to "explain" why so many can't get on the housing ladderHmm

I agree the very poorest may not go to such places, but most people do and enjoy it as part of a modern lifestyle, despite the disapproval of some - an elite Wink ? - at the consumerist society that the Uk in particular has.

It is a difference I've noticed over many years on jobs in Germany:
The German economy is based far more on manufacturing actual goods; the Uk economy is based on people selling services to each other, hence lower pay and the ubiquitous US franchises.

The large cities have the main US chains, but not the takeover of the high st by fast food every few steps.
Food outlets seem to be good quality traditional family owned restaurants and bakeries
Ordinary towns have far fewer US chains - McD and Bk are a 10 minute busride from my village, but I'd need bus and 30 mins train ride to Starbucks.

Fortunately for me, maybe a generational difference, they've never been part of my lifestyle.
However, I know that many younger Brit expats do feel the lack and it causes homesickness / cultural angst if they don't live in the larger towns & cities.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2017 12:19

Both Bojo and the chancellor Hammond have said that higher German productivity means
German workers produce goods in 4 days that UK produce in 5 days. That's with shorter hours and longer holidays.
The US and other Western countries also have significant advantages over the UK, so it's not some mysterious German or even EU trick, but a serious structual UK defect.

Boris Johnson 2013:
Most UK problems are caused by
"chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure"

That is the reason behind the decline in Uk manufacturing and the much longer hours worked compared to comparable E27 countries
The lower pound should also theoretically help, but the pound has been declining in value for several decades, long before the UK joined the then EEC so all it does is compensate.

The UK joins the basket cases of Greece and Portugal in a decline in average real wages since the financial crash of 2008-9:

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…
Cupofteaandtoilet · 17/04/2017 12:20

Another full British (English with a little Welsh thrown in) complainer who is hoping it won't happen. {waves}

Have you seen this? Apologies if duplicate posting. www.chathamhouse.org/publications/twt/bracing-ourselves-brexit#

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2017 12:26

wrt low pay:
That's not just in the coffee houses and restaurants.

Should the Uk be subsiding via tax credits such a large % of the working population ?

Theoretically no, but otherwise those millions of people would suffer great hardship, prices of godos & services would soar and millions of jobs would be at risk - that's risking economic meltdown and a Depression.

Hardly any of them would vote to lose their tax credits, but their employers are not paying / not able to pay a sufficient wage for the standard of living they exopct

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2017 12:33

The prospect of another international financial crash is horrendous for nearly all of us.

But that is the likely result of Trump removing the financial safeguards (brought in by Obama) which he has already started to do.
The financial tricksters among the Brexit Ultras want to walk away without a deal, to enable the Tories to remove safeguards in the City

If so, look forward to bailing out more British banks and another 10 years of falling real wages.

thecatfromjapan · 17/04/2017 12:37

Seeing tax credits only as a subsidy for evil capitalist employers is, I would say, to buy into the rhetoric which flooded public discourse in advance of plans to cut welfare back to the bone.

Yes, I know there's an element of truth in it but there is also another side to the story. Tax credits help get people - mainly women returners - back into work. Big breaks from employment (to raise children, for example) make it difficult to get back into a well-paid, full-time job. Tax credits help that.

I'm just putting it out there, because that aspect of tax credits seems to have been completely forgotten. Our cultural memory can be very short.

And I agree with what BigChoc's saying. Personally, I work/study long hours, miles from home. It's cheering to be able to buy a hot drink, of a reasonable standard, served by someone with a smile - not think forlornly of my kettle way back at home. And I'm old enough to remember when you could choose between nothing or a cup of instant coffee, served with a snarl. It was a revelation when the Seattle Coffee Company opened up - competition for Bar Italia!

And, yes, most of those 'bottom of the rung' immigrants serving coffee are using the job to subsidise life ventures that don't, initially at least, pay very well: acting, art, study.

I'd like them to pay more tax. I don't think Brexit is going to deliver more tax, at all. The way things are going, Brexit is going to deliver us a low-tax, low-joy culture for many people - and a carnival of exploitation for the super-wealthy.

Though we may well see a diminution in mass-market coffee dispensers and the cultural experimentation and mingling that travels alongside it.

How grey. Sad

prettybird · 17/04/2017 13:03

Cupoftea - I posted it earlier with a couple of quotes - and a rant about TTIP on steroids! Wink

.....but it got swallowed up with a relevant discussion on coffee shops and reminders that we could be British and still care (and even if we're not - so what?) and that even if we're personally unlikely to be affected too negatively by Brexit, we can still care about the bigger picture and those who are going to be shafted (and to be Angry at those that are going to make a killing at the expense of the "underlings" Hmm)

howabout · 17/04/2017 13:17

Lies, damned lies and statistics and I think we both agree BoJo is a master of all three Bigchoc.

2015 is the latest data I could find on comparative net income. UK income growth may be in the Greece basket but absolute average monthly net income in the UK is more than double that in Greece. It is also above France and Germany.

www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015

This is even after including the EU nationals who make up the lowest paid segment of the UK work force with higher than average working hours and labour market participation rates. The opposite is true of non-EU nationals working in the UK.

BluePeppersAndBroccoli · 17/04/2017 13:18

Purely an annecdote but I remember well the day where I decided to change the way I was working (boring documents for quality control that just needed a bit of tweaking) to make it easier and faster.
I ended up doing 3/4 documents a day when all my colleagues were doing only one. I was told that I wasn't doing my job well because I wasn't copying again and again every single word of said documents but was doing 'copy and paste' instead.
Then you wonder why people in Britain aren't as productive....
ive had plenty of examples like this when I was working as an engineer in the uk.

howabout · 17/04/2017 13:25

thecat I agree with you about tax credits as they were originally designed. However the changes put in place 2010 onwards and the move to UC make the system look increasingly like working for benefits.

I also think post 2008 the balance of protecting jobs by artificially suppressing wages may have gone too far. The perceived need to import low wage employees is surely evidence of this.

howabout · 17/04/2017 13:32

It is not presumption on my part that EU workers make up the lowest paid sector of the UK economy. It is based on ONS data. The EU14 group are slightly ahead of the UK average, but they are outnumbered by the EU8 and EU2 who are the lowest paid group. The statistics surprised me and since I am very far from defining anyone by how much they earn or how hard they work no offence was intended.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/migrationandthelabourmarketuk/2016

howabout · 17/04/2017 13:43

Looking unsuccessfully for an article on why the UK rather than Germany benefits from EU FoM to the extent it does.

Found an eminently sensible article by Vince Cable on developing a balanced approach.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/germany-and-france-bend-single-market-rules-so-why-cant-britain-control

Dannythechampion · 17/04/2017 13:43

Immigration is not the thing holding down wages, its the fallout from 2008, the lack of UK workers bargaining power due to low union representation, as well as things like the public sector pay freeze.

You also have to remember that the vast majority of EU immigrants actually return home after a few years.

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 13:50

The large cities have the main US chains, but not the takeover of the high st by fast food every few steps. Food outlets seem to be good quality traditional family owned restaurants and bakeries. Ordinary towns have far fewer US chains - McD and Bk are a 10 minute busride from my village, but I'd need bus and 30 mins train ride to Starbucks.

I'm a 40 min drive/ 1 hour bus ride from our nearest McDo and I wouldn't know where the nearest Starbucks was. It would be hard I think for the American coffee chains to compete as there are bars everywhere selling good coffee. In our nearest big city, even the fast food is mostly independents not chains.

Compare with my Mum's Wiltshire market town where a new Costa Coffee has put small cafés out of business...

whatwouldrondo · 17/04/2017 13:55

Bigchoc The decline in British manufacturing was hastened by Maggie Thatchers economic policy which deliberately refocused the economy on services. She not only removed any tariff barriers /protection that were in place for the manufacturing sector she also allowed utilities and councils to hit them with huge rises in charges and business rates. At the same time she reenergised the financial sector with the Big Bang, not deregulation as many perceive but the replacement of self regulation and restrictive practises with government regulation designed to tune up the whole financial services industry, and initiate a feeding frenzy.

In that context it is bollocks to criticise British manufacturers. Other governments, like Germany, support their manufacturers with financial incentives and investment in infrastructure and other support so they can modernise and face their markets, the Conservatives hobbled them.

Dannythechampion · 17/04/2017 13:59

German industry also works in a different way, the British main objective is profit maximisation in the short term. The German aim is growth, whilst also managing to keep most of the stakeholders in the firm satisfied.

HPFA · 17/04/2017 14:01

Beyond parody

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/853823607000244227

Apparently David Davies thinks that EU agencies can be persuaded to stay in London after Brexit. Comments on the tweet suggest that either Davies is completely incompetent (majority position) or that he is hoping that the media will portray this as a spiteful move on the part of the EU. Because the fact that we are leaving the EU and want to stop giving it any money still entitles us to have the EU make a major contribution to our local economy rather than that of an EU country. Naturally.

Apologies if this has been posted before - have not checked the whole thread.

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 14:07

EU workers make up the lowest paid sector of the UK economy

Some do. Some earn, on average, more than UK workers. It is misleading and offensive to say that immigrant workers, as a group, occupy the "lowest rung".

It would be correct to say that immigrants from two countries are disproportionately represented among the lowest paid and among the self-employed (self-employment as the UK does it, ie shifting the risks and the cost of self-employment onto those employees with the least bargaining power).

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 14:11

Beyond parody

^twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/853823607000244227^

Apparently David Davies thinks that EU agencies can be persuaded to stay in London after Brexit.

Christ, what is wrong with these people?

If we're going to bandy around offensive terms for groups of people, like "lowest rung", then perhaps we could instead bestow it upon DExEu. I wouldn't pay David Davis the minimum wage.

Dannythechampion · 17/04/2017 14:14

Its also worth pointing out that the EU workers on the lowest rung, don't stay there for long if they do stay for more than a year or two, and of course hospitality, farm work etc are predominantly done by young people is going to be low paid, one of the reasons many of these young people are here is to work, but also see the world a bit.