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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/04/2017 10:15

British here too

Both sides of the family as far back as i can be bothered to look

I dont even have any european or non british friends (i havent checked their family trees)

I worked with a european lady once she was on a temporary maternity contract..does that count?

HashiAsLarry · 17/04/2017 10:16

On a more serious note, going way back to certain censoring of media reports on incidents, has anyone seen the latest on the Dortmund bus?

First reports was Isis sympathiser who was cleared, then far left and now a neo nazi group have claimed responsibility.

Basically we have nearly all spectrums there, though Farage has gone oddly silent on in since the latest turn of events twat

prettybird · 17/04/2017 10:18

Not sure if this has already been posted (the warnings all start blurring into each other WinkSad), written by Sir Simon Fraser, former head of the Foreign Office.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/twt/bracing-ourselves-brexit#sthash.UrWzAU1C.dpuf

A couple of extracts:

If we lost 5 per cent of our trade with the EU, we would need a 25 per cent increase with the BRICS just to get back to square one

And, about trade with the US

These are politically sensitive issues on both sides, as we know from the EU/US TTIP negotiation, which offers both a launch-pad and some cautionary lessons. The US will also have other objectives in our market, for example for hormone-treated beef and genetically modified foods, which the British public may baulk at. However much political goodwill there is, finding a balance of advantage will be tricky, and the UK will be the weaker party offering access to a smaller market.

I know re TTIP that in the run up to the referendum I had to disabuse a few people of their view that voting Leave would "save" us from TTIP, reminding them that our government had already said it should be signed as it was as soon as possible and that it was the other EU countries who were stopping it, due to legitimate concerns (the very concerns that these people were expressing Confused); that voting Leave was likely to result with the UK entering into a "TTIP on steroids" literally Sad agreement with the US.

woman12345 · 17/04/2017 10:30

German police investigate far-Right link to Dortmund bombing
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/16/german-police-investigate-far-right-link-dortmund-bombing/

Hashi Apologies if you've seen this one and nothing for sure, but several newspapers printing different views on what happened.

Imagine living in a country where holocaust denial was banned; false alt right news was banned on social media and where bomb attacks are investigated carefully.

And football fans give opponent team free accommodation because of delayed match.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2017 10:37

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39619512?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
DUP MP says Northern Ireland heading towards direct rule

I bet the DUP are gutted about this and are being amazingly constructive in trying to get Stormont working again.

The tragedy in this is, the people of NI are irrelevant and the Good Friday Agreement effectively is being torn up by default.

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whatwouldrondo · 17/04/2017 10:41

Copper is a NC unless there is another comfortably off Home Counties matron poster with a SIL who is City (Senior Finance) who is impatient for Brexit. Hmm Things can only get better for people in private banking, hedge funds etc. Because they will not have to comply with all those pesky regulations that stop them doing business with gangsters, criminals and corrupt politicians and from shafting ordinary investors. However those that actually work in international finance are busy fastening their seat belts and putting in place contingency plans to move activities out of the UK along with the EU banking agencies. They I are definitely not looking forward to it. Some of them even would prefer not to be the world's amoral money launderers.

None of my relatives are EU unless you go back one generation too far for me to get Irish citizenship Sad and I can trace my ancestry to the fifteenth century in a farm on the northern moors and a village in the Midlands but I am truly appalled at this act of self harm to a country whose welfare state and NHS I was proud of and I thought aspired to fairness and equality and was a progressive forward thinking country able to punch above its weight in the world. I don't remember the 50s but I do remember the excitement of the spirit of progress and non conformity of the 60s and the drab depressed recession of the 70s which was only fixed by joining with our neighbours.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2017 10:44

woman12345 is that another one of those magic 'elephants in the room'?

Rupert Myers‏*@RupertMyers*
If we need EU citizens to pour coffee, what don't we need them for?
Anyone?

Conservative Home
Our survey. Three in four Party members prefer no deal to what they would see as a bad deal.

The headline is misleading - the questions are leading to say the least. Which in itself says something...

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Peregrina · 17/04/2017 10:45

I reckon the people who are complaining, and hoping it won't happen are either nationals of another EU country living here or people who have a relative who is from EU.

Then you reckon wrong.

howabout · 17/04/2017 10:46

Misti there is a trade off between worker conditions and wages and unemployment. Productivity is not measured directly but as a function of wages. The French unemployment rate is twice that of the UK. There is also evidence of Eurozone policies exporting unemployment to Southern Europe in the name of "economic restructuring".

woman12345 · 17/04/2017 10:49

The tragedy in this is, the people of NI are irrelevant and the Good Friday Agreement effectively is being torn up by default.

We're in act 3 of a tragedy. Hubris is about to bite the main protagonists, before their inevitable fall. It'll be a bit sticky during final acts, thanks to Brokenshire and May. Has she the political nous to have appointed such a dimwit at such a crucial time?

Trump's on a steep downward trajectory and Mensch is on overdrive again.

Questions over 'foreign' parentage are so creepy and Nazi-ish. Normalising fascism.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/04/2017 10:49

Dh has a finance related job

He has wanted out of the eu for ever

Until the referendum came up and he, in his own opinion, thought the best thing for the country financially was to remain

To be honest i did think about my vote and would have voted remain anyway...but when he seemed worried i felt i should be 'terrified' Grin

(And no i wasnt really terrified Hmm i am exaggerating for effect)

howabout · 17/04/2017 10:51

Why exactly do we need Starbucks at all if they supply overpriced empty calorie laden "coffee", pay little tax, and don't pay enough to meet their labour requirements from the local labour market?

I am quite happy with a kettle or a coffee machine at home or work if the worst comes to the worst.

woman12345 · 17/04/2017 10:58

'elephants in the room'

@RupertMyers
If we need EU citizens to pour coffee, what don't we need them for?
Anyone?

@DrBillyo_

I had 25 GCSE students dissecting Pig hearts today. Qualified cardiac surgeons ready to go.

Brexit Healthcare. Grin

howabout · 17/04/2017 10:59

A bit more on the earlier discussions about craft brewing / distilling. My local area is also seeing an increase in craft chocolate and cake and tea and coffee shops. Interesting counterbalance to the UK/Poland story on mass chocolate production.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39619664

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 11:05

there is a trade off between worker conditions and wages and unemployment.

Of course there is. One of the reasons that French unemployment is higher than the UK is that the costs of employment are higher, not so much because of higher wages (although the minimum wage is higher) but because of employee protections and because it is much harder for employers to use abusive part-time contracts. I am not sure where you stand on this issue (I thought you were a lexiter?) but broadly speaking unless I was very unskilled I would prefer to work in France. (That does not mean I think the French model is perfect. The labour market needs reform.)

Productivity is not measured directly but as a function of wages

I am not sure what you mean by this, as productivity is a measure of output per work unit. Productivity is part of the reason why French unemployment is high, although it's not a simple one way cause-effect argument. In an economy where the costs of employment are high, companies are more likely to invest in capital equipment that improves productivity (hence Hamon's "robot tax"). But at the same time, much French high-tech and engineering employment exists because the French workforce is skilled and productive.

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 11:08

Why exactly do we need Starbucks at all if they supply overpriced empty calorie laden "coffee", pay little tax, and don't pay enough to meet their labour requirement

Well, the simple answer is that you dont, but if purveyors of bad takeaway coffee all close, the employment they generate and the taxes their employees pay are lost, and the economy shrinks. If this happens in enough sectors of the economy it is called a recession.

Typically, recessions are hard on the least skilled, lowest paid workers - and this is particularly true in anglophone countries for some reason.

Mistigri · 17/04/2017 11:12

Questions over 'foreign' parentage are so creepy and Nazi-ish. Normalising fascism.

The idea that if one engages in "crimethink" then qone must be a dirty foreigner is a toxic mix of fascism and Orwell's 1984.

woman12345 · 17/04/2017 11:22

"It's offensive to be constantly asked where I'm 'really' from and period dramas are to blame, Implicit in the question is the suggestion that I'm not from England – the place where I was born, where I study and where I pay my taxes"

www.independent.co.uk/voices/xenophobia-islam-muslim-britain-brexit-where-im-really-from-a7685661.html

What about 'cared for' children who don't have clear lineage?

It's a deliberate strategy to criminalise/ vilify citizens for something they over which they have no control.

Lineage is being turned into a strict liability offence.

It's fascist bullshit.

I will not complete any racial profiling crap anymore, although as gender is now allegedly fluid, I will choose whether I feel more male or female on a particular day.

NinonDeLenclos · 17/04/2017 11:22

Yes it's obnoxiously xenophobic (and economically illiterate) to assume that anyone who cricitises Brexit must be forrin.

Despite my name I'm British. My husband's French but he has British citizenship, so he's ok. I object to fuckwits buggering up the country nonetheless.

HashiAsLarry · 17/04/2017 11:22

I know woman. How horrendous it would be Wink

prettybird · 17/04/2017 11:23

Personally I prefer the coffee (and breakfast) in Sarti's. Much better value than Starbucks Wink They do a great pizza too.

As a 2nd generation Glasgow Italian institution, at least the owners should be safe provided they've sorted out their ILRs Wink. But it is staffed mostly by Italians - wonder what will happen in future? Grin

HashiAsLarry · 17/04/2017 11:23

That was to your Germany remark. Cross posted Blush

prettybird · 17/04/2017 11:33

I have a very obviously German surname (my ancestors left Germany in the 16th century and went to Sweden, which they left for South Africa in the 18th century). So I presume I'm tainted too Wink

Dh and ds look Spanish (olive skin and black eyes - dh particularly so); the result, we presume, of a ship wrecked Spaniard during the rout of the Armada as we can't find any other evidence of non-Scots/N. Irish lineage in his family tree. Ds is dark enough to be assumed to be Asian when he is with his many Asian friends.

woman12345 · 17/04/2017 11:35

I got that Hashi Smile

I have also noticed some 'fun' or not so 'fun' news items on names, also in the news.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-racist-voters-xenophobic-immigrant-european-non-names-study-research-rallings-thrasher-a7673031.html

What's the sub text to all that?

Jews don't have their original Hebrew names, because they constantly have to change them to fit in with 'host' nations, particularly over the last 2000 years.

And it was done overtly with 'Sarah' and 'Israel' being compulsory on German Jewish passports post 1939.

I know a many Asian people do the same for ease, but it's not exactly compulsory yet.

What's the next allegedly foreign feature to be adapted for brexit britain?

It's bollocks.

howabout · 17/04/2017 11:37

re baristas that is a somewhat circular argument Misti if the likes of Starbucks don't pay taxes or support the local economy by paying enough in wages and if they need to import labour who are the lowest rung in the economy and will doubtless relocate post Brexit if there is a downturn.

A footnote on French productivity. In addition to higher unemployment relative to the UK there is also lower labour market participation. Italy also has higher productivity than the UK but has much higher unemployment, lower labour market participation and an ageing stable / falling population. German workers probably are more productive than the UK but they do have a similar population profile to Italy. In that respect France and the UK are more similar.

Sorry, bored waiting for 3 DDs to get themselves out the bathroom.