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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 21:44

Goodness. The Trump news just keeps coming! I'm going to have to hope someone else posts the links but Twitter is on fire with the news that someone in the CIA has designated wikileaks as a non-state hostile organisation that co-ordinated with Russia to interfere in the election. Shock

thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 21:45

Sorry. That is well below the usual standard of posting on this thread and not strictly about the EU Ref (though I do think that the Trump election and Brexit have links).

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 21:50

thecatfromjapan could you post links for this? I am useless at twitter.

missmoon · 13/04/2017 21:52

thecatfromjapan Shock

missmoon · 13/04/2017 21:57

woman, I found this: twitter.com/LawyerRogelio/status/852615222426832896

thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 22:09

Thank you, MissMoon.

I have to admit, I couldn't quite believe it, so I headed off to find the Trump news thread on mn to check. Grin

I'm finding it all quite incredible.

I wish I was better at e-research and links but some report into Brexit came out very recently and said that it couldn't be sure that a doxx attack hadn't prevented people from registering to vote - though it remained unclear what the effect of that might have been.

Tin-foil hat land? A year in which the US and UK learnt about the limits of the security of their democratic processes? It all seems extraordinary.

mathanxiety · 13/04/2017 22:11

ComfortandJoyce:
If that's right, then that would explain why there was no hysteria in the UK about the mass terrorism committed by the white Christian IRA between the 1970s and 1990s, right?

Except of course there was hysteria then. Bucketloads of it. So much for your silly argument. (i.e. that 'all concern about terrorist mass murder is really racism.')

So you clearly do not understand that racism doesn't have to involve what we call 'racial difference'. As long as a group can be othered enough, hatred and suspicion can easily be drummed up.

It seems you are ignorant of how the Irish have traditionally been portrayed in Britain. s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/06/cd/bc06cded94e06cc21a708c49104e6e50.jpg 'Mr. G. O'Rilla'... That's my ancestors, all their families and friends.

Events of the 1910s/20s and 70s/80s only served to reinforce a strong prejudice that already existed. The prejudice existed from the Reformation onwards. The hysteria was built on a solid foundation of assumptions about the nature of the Irish.

There's always been a degree of anti-Irish bigotry in the UK.
Pfffft...

But to say that the reason the mostly white Christian people of the mainland UK were hostile to the mostly white Christian Irish in the 70s, 80s, and 90s was because of racism is pretty inaccurate. The hostility was primarily a response to the terrorism the IRA were committing, not because the IRA were a foreign race or religion.

You are having a laugh, ComfortandJoyce.
Are you trying to tell us that the Penal Laws never existed, that the sectarian element to politics in Ireland never was, that the Free Presbyterian Church calls the Catholic Church 'Christian' or is happy to call itself 'Christian'?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster
Doctrine
The church adheres to Calvinist doctrines. It also self-describes as fundamentalist which it sees as an appropriate term to describe its stance of being anti-liberal. Christian Fundamentalism has evolved over the years to where the original five essential doctrines that one had to hold to be considered fundamentalist, namely: The inerrancy of the Bible,The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, The Virgin Birth of Christ, The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ, the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross, were mixed in with a healthy dose of "biblical separatism" which is a doctrine that advocates avoiding any public or private worship with people of other denominations that it considers apostates or heretics. At the start of Paisley's ministry this separatism was focused heavily on the Presbyterian Church in Ireland a denomination from which it drew many of its initial members. For the FPC the main target of its doctrinal ire, however, has always been and still continues to be the Roman Catholic Church. As of 2015 its main website greets all-comers with a message of how the FPC disapproves of politicians going to the funerals of Roman Catholics as by doing so they were communicating a message that there was "little difference" between the mass and Protestant communion. This message has been on the front page since at least June 2011...

...For many outside the church, political and religious opposition to the Roman Catholic Church, considered by the Free Presbyterians to be a Protestant Reformation principle, represents the single most distinctive characteristic of this denomination, not least because this was a distinctive characteristic of Ian Paisley's own theological outlook.

www.freepresbyterian.org/5-solas/
Makes it clear what the FPC thinks of 'Christians', proudly proclaiming itself to be 'unashamedly a Protestant Church.^

mathanxiety · 13/04/2017 22:16

ComfortandJoybe:
Fox News is hardly representative of mainstream US opinion though - everyone knows it's a rightwing propaganda outfit.

Very sadly, Fox News is actually very much representative of mainstream American opinion.

You may not be aware that Fox News changes its content and tone to suit hot buttons in the markets it pollutes. So the Fox News broadcast you see in Kansas City will be quite significantly to the right of what you will see in Chicago. It has its finger on the pulse of America. It serves up what will go down.

mathanxiety · 13/04/2017 22:27

ComfortandJoyce:
When the IRA were conducting their terrorism campaigns in England during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, were English people who voiced concerns about the Irish doing so primarily (a) because of their racism against the Irish, (b) because of their fear and anger at the terrorism the IRA were committing?

Now, human beings are complicated, so the reality was probably a mixture of (a) and (b). But to say that concerns about terrorism today are nothing but racism is ridiculous, because it implies that concerns about terrorism in previous decades were also nothing but racism.

I think the answer to that question of yours lies within the question itself.

Were the British public aware of the existence of Unionist terror groups?
If yes, what was their response?
(If not, why not? Lack of curiosity? Media coverage?)
Would the British public have given a rat's ass about terrorism or sectarian atrocities if it had all been confined to the province of Northern Ireland itself?
Did the British public actually give a rat's ass about sectarian atrocities in Northern Ireland? After all there was far more terror inflicted on people in Northern Ireland than in Britain, by a massive margin. Your question does not mention that at all.

Associated with all of that, were the British public up in arms about the apartheid system that existed in NI from 1921 to Direct Rule in 1972?
.....
Yes, they were in fact being anti-Irish if they considered 'Irish' people had anything to do with bombings in Britain. They were clearly ignorant of Ireland, Irish government policy towards the IRA and Provos, and Irish people, and chose to forget that NI is part of the UK, making the protagonists in the Troubles 'British', not Irish.

LOL at 'voiced concerns' though.
Now that's a euphemism if ever there was one.

TheElementsSong · 13/04/2017 22:35

Article from the FT:

www.ft.com/content/2f0e7a6e-1eff-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9

UK companies face being frozen out of lucrative European space contracts after Brussels laid out new terms for the latest phase of work on the €10bn Galileo satellite navigation system.

The European Commission is demanding the right to cancel existing contracts without penalty if a supplier is no longer based in an EU member state.

It is also insisting that any supplier ejected from the programme should repay all costs to the EU of finding a replacement, according to companies that have been asked to agree to the conditions.

Peregrina · 13/04/2017 22:44

The news about what we are going to be excluded from just gets more and more depressing.

whatwouldrondo · 13/04/2017 22:48

woman The troubles are on the GCSE and A level syllabus. My DD studied it at GCSE and A level

Math Whilst I agree that many in the U.K. were ignorant of what was happening in NI and comfort was particularly ignorant about what happened in the U.K. And NI Hmm perhaps he/she is back at troll school being bought up to speed the fact is that it was a part of many families experiences. I was in Belfast when the barricades went up on a trip to Donegal on the back of DF having a business trip, I had an Irish Catholic cousin who was traumatised by serving in the army in Belfast, and then in time I was sent there on a special project to sort out the discriminatory HR practises in the company I worked for and I have friends and family on board th sides of the border. There was more to my experience, and my views and feelings on the issues than being close to several of the bombs in the U.K.. I saw the smoke rise from the Old Bailey, would have been by the bin in Victoria if I had not been stopped earlier than usual by morning sickness and threw up in a bin at Clapham instead, and walked into the aftermath of the City bombs. I do not think I was that unusual in having all those connections, and to care, expecially amongst Londoners.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/04/2017 22:55

Paying for the costs of finding a replacement is very harsh, imo
I hope it's just a negotiating ploy, which they can concede to enable the UK to claim it has won something.

I've been hoping that about quite a few Brexit-related matters:
The EU negotiators have said that the UK media is toxic and could wreck any deal.
Hence, I suspect they will create a number of strawmen to concede, to "big up" what May actually achieves.

< crosses fingers and hopes hard. If they really mean all they say, then the UK will be screwed even harder than we fear >

thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 22:59

TheElementsSong That's not just being frozen out, that's surely a powerful, very powerful, incentive for companies based in UK to establish an EU base (i.e.. relocate), surely? Especially given they are being asked to agree to these terms now. Confused

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 22:59

Thanks ron I will interrogate my own GCSE History student on this in the morning!

But it may be taught but it's not absorbed. Like Cromwell and all sorts of malarkey, we/British mainlanders don't really acknowledge 'Bloody Sunday' for example. Unless we do we can never know what it's like to be treated like an enemy on our own island, even before May's racist deportation policies.

I remember / was almost hurt in the bombing campaigns on the mainland, it was still a war, but we weren't and aren't told that. Maybe it's time to learn for ourselves.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/04/2017 23:00

ron Those of us who are OLDER actually lived through the Troubles - and don't walk through life with eyes firmly closed - are bound to have a much better general knowledge than those who didn't.

Even history taught in schools won't have all the details about people and events that we remember and certainly won't have the personal recollections of those turbulent times that you, woman and I have

thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 23:02

BigChoc I far prefer your interpretation.

What an utter mess. I agree with their description of the press. Sad

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 23:02

The EU negotiators have said that the UK media is toxic and could wreck any deal
It is, and it has sadly. Interesting, I am still pleased that EU leaders are standing up for morality.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/04/2017 23:03

It is an obvious strategy for the E27 to reduce the cost of Brexit to themselves by taking lucrative chunks of business from the UK.
e.g. several E27 cities scrambling to grab some of the juicy financial services from the City, taking the formerly Uk-based agencies with their high tech base

TheElementsSong · 13/04/2017 23:04

thecat

very powerful, incentive for companies based in UK to establish an EU base (i.e.. relocate)

Yes, later on in the article (sorry, it is the FT so behind paywall) I think it is suggested that some companies are thinking precisely along those lines. Oh well, we've had enough of experts, right?

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 23:09

certainly won't have the personal recollections of those turbulent times that you, woman and I have
I still think my knowledge is very partial of the 'troubles'. I tried to organise a modest petition, for Bobby Sands as he was starving himself to death, in my work place. Liberal/Labour colleagues were scared to ally themselves with any NI cause. It was a complete no go in mid to late 80s.

I volunteered to help Amnesty prisoners in other countries like Chile and South Africa, but knew nothing of NI prisoners of conscience a few hundred miles away.

But, math I did go to schools run by presbyterians in Glasgow, and I suspected their ethics then as a child, but really suspect their ethics now.

thecatfromjapan · 13/04/2017 23:09

But it's all OK if all these companies leave. Jeremy Corbyn says it's a chance to revitalise out economy and the Brexiteers say we'll have control. No matter that we'll have lost a huge percentage of our GDP and international presence.

I genuinely wonder how these people will feel, living in such a very, very small country, with very poor infrastructure (we won't have the money to run services like education and the NHS at the level we do presently)? Will they feel comfortable, less challenged by things they found over-whelming and 'too big'? Or will they feel angry - and in denial?

I feel genuinely heart-broken for the future - as part of a forward-facing, internationally-involved country - that has been taken from young people.

whatwouldrondo · 14/04/2017 00:07

Asia is having a field day with the Xi Trump encounter, why did Trump get into bromance territory? Distraction from the real bromance? A chance to nob with a nationalist totalitarian leader and bomb countries over chocolate cake, and be more familiar with what you ate than the country you bombed www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bustle.com/p/trump-cant-recall-which-country-he-bombed-but-he-remembers-what-he-was-eating-at-the-time-50732/amp

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2017 00:35

By election results

Coulby Newham (Middlesbrough) result:

CON: 38.0% (+8.3)
LAB: 35.5% (-8.2)
IND: 24.1% (-2.5)
GRN: 2.4% (+2.4)

Chgs. from 2015.
CON gain from Labour.

This is Middleborough that well known Tory heartland... Oh wait...

The CONs held Piddle Valley (only other candidate was green) but I've no figures for that one.

Math i wouldn't even bother will that argument. 'Common sense's is far more convincing than boring history.

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