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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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Kaija · 13/04/2017 01:46

"But to say that concerns about terrorism today are nothing but racism is ridiculous"

Nobody has said this. Obviously.

HashiAsLarry · 13/04/2017 06:46

So nice to have gone to bed and see the true colours come out.
I'll be sure to tell my DM she never suffered any racism at the hands of the British before the IRA existed. That's those no blacks, no Irish signs existed.
I'm sure she will feel so much better.
Not to mention the sheer crassness of conflating anti Irish racism which dates back centuries with the IRA which dates back to last century is another sign of complete willfull nasty ignorance.

HashiAsLarry · 13/04/2017 06:47

Those no black, no Irish signs never existed apparently.

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 06:51

And if you refer back to my peculiar reference, 'Christian' 'terrorism' has a very long and very recent history.

Misti It was interesting to talk to west coast US liberals in the1980s about Ireland, they opened my eyes to what 'terrorism' was, and as a child I was almost killed in the Ideal Homes exhibition one in 1976. US's affinity didn't stretch to siding with it during the Irish civil war/Troubles.

If you want to know why Israel has such a militarised culture, look for example at the Entebbe hi jack, in which Jews were separated from non Jews for murder, and Netanyahu's brother lost his life. Very real terrorism has been part of Israeli life since the start. ( I disagree with Netanyahu and occupied territories)

It works, some of the time, is why tweets are weaponised over there and May's racist crap is weaponised over here. Agree with you again ron on China. Once a populace has internalised ignorance and fear, the state can do what it wants.

If May's got a 37% (!) lead, and she's nominally a democrat, shouldn't she ensure she's got an opposition before she proceeds? Rail roading alt right stuff through with no opposition does what Andrews said, with a much longer time frame than the Ku Klux Klan crew in Washington. Unless she loves power more than democracy.

This fascinating interview with Peter Ford, posted a few days ago has been removed from BBC server ( there are theories on why on t'internet) He warns of the imperative of checking the veracity of alleged terrorist attacks, and the danger of them being used to start even worse conflict
woman12345 · 13/04/2017 06:52

siding with it siding with England.

Mistigri · 13/04/2017 07:47

Let's hope the sock drawer doesn't show up today huh? Someone on my Twitter feed was complaining that the brexit trolls had been unusually active on her timeline yesterday. I doubt this is a coincidence.

There is a fascinating article about Martin Selmayr and Nick Timothy (the back room power behind Juncker and May respectively) in the FT today, for those who have access. Both are ruthless, effective and high intelligent; the main difference appears to be that Selmayr knows how the EU works. This does not bode well for negotiations.

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 07:58

Triple sock puppet time for the holidays? Visitors on other thread, always interesting to see what sparked them off, will ask data thread poster to check it out.

Nick (alleged election expenses malarkey) Timothy www.channel4.com/news/election-expenses-new-emails-show-more-members-of-pms-top-team-involved
Doesn't Hammond hate Timothy and call him and Fiona Hill 'the teenagers'?

HashiAsLarry · 13/04/2017 08:03

I find it amusing how they can't cope with getting what they wanted.
Like a bridezilla organising the wedding of her dreams but crying because other people's lives don't revolve around it.

Badders123 · 13/04/2017 08:04

Such a great analogy hashi!

lalalonglegs · 13/04/2017 08:06

Yes, Nick Timothy has been deeply implicated in the elections expenses allegations and may soon become something of a political liability for TM.

Further to last night's discussions on terrorism, there is a long but very interesting article today about home-grown terrorism and the rise of the suicide-jihadi.

Mistigri · 13/04/2017 08:06

Some really unpleasant xenophobic posts on the other thread (the one about what remainers want) last night. And these people get upset when we point out that they don't seem to like foreigners! I'm coming to a hardline position of assuming that all brexiters are racists unless they demonstrate otherwise. No more benefit of the doubt from me.

Mistigri · 13/04/2017 08:07

^Nick (alleged election expenses malarkey) Timothy www.channel4.com/news/election-expenses-new-emails-show-more-members-of-pms-top-team-involved^

Channel 4 has been nothing if not dogged. Will anything come of it though? The clock is ticking.

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 08:12

Grin hashi that's great: bridezilla. The hissy fit victim tears work well for racists particularly in England for some reason. Interesting.

woman12345 · 13/04/2017 08:17

It is in theory under police investigation. 25 days left. I have almost no hope that it won't be a stitch up. The entire gov majority since 2015 depends on the dodgy seats, for which they've been fined £70k.

The Guardian is strangely quiet on it. Channel 4 is up for re organisation. No one's reporting it. At least Trump is overt about press censorship. Hmm

It'll slip under the radar and disappear. Sad

twofingerstoEverything · 13/04/2017 08:23

When the IRA were conducting their terrorism campaigns in England during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, were English people who voiced concerns about the Irish doing so primarily (a) because of their racism against the Irish, (b) because of their fear and anger at the terrorism the IRA were committing?
Hatred of the Irish predates the 70s by a long way. It was well entrenched by Victorian times, with the Irish being stereotyped as violent and alcoholic. Here's Disraeli in 1836: [The Irish] hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry.
But then the English have always been better and more civilised than everyone else, haven't they?

Badders123 · 13/04/2017 08:29

I have seen old newspapers that depict the Irish as simians 😞
And of course after 9/11 the American IRA supporters realised that, actually, terrorism is bad.
😳🙄
US IRA support vanished more or less overnight.
It's amazing how many leave voters bang on about not being racist....then they post something very racist and get mad when it's pointed out.
Sigh.
It's the old....I'm not racist BUT...

Peregrina · 13/04/2017 08:32

and strict controls on immigration.

How far do you go back? To all those who can trace their ancestry back to before the Norman Conquest, or the Danish invasions in the north? I might be OK - not sure, only gone back as far as the 16th and 18th centuries on either side, and then the trails go cold.

Interesting re the Peter Ford interview being removed from the BBC. He gave the wrong answers. He behaved as an Ambassador should. Of course, with anything broadcast/tweeted/on websites these days, once shown, some helpful soul grabs it and propagates it on t'internet.

twofingerstoEverything · 13/04/2017 08:33

"Fuck off you Spaniards, Gibraltar is ours..." (Leicester city fans in Madrid)

As I was saying above, the English have always been better and more civilised than everyone else.
www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/videos/10154686925766636/

Mistigri · 13/04/2017 09:03

If the EU has any sense it will be glad to see the back of us :(

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 09:11

I don't think it's cos of half term. It usually happens when conversation is striking a nerve.

I don't think all leavers are racist and don't think they should have to prove that they aren't. I do think that leavers are more likely to think the British superior in some way though, mainly because there is the idea that we can achieve more alone. Brexit at best doesn't view European countries as equal partners with common goals, but as underlings that are holding us back somehow. The language of government and the media has repeatedly emphasised this. All the Empire and Colonial shit. That is not racism per se but it's also not promoting the idea of humans being equal. It's this Anglosphere bollocks and historical revisionism and blindness.

Funny how the conversation kicked in when we were talking about historical revisionism.

Brexit needs and wants historical revisionism. Of different types and strengths. Numerous Brexit clans want it for different reasons.

This two year process of convincing the British public is going to have lots of it. It's a key part of strategy.

Brexit does not want you to think or feel you have a voice. Brexit wants you to feel you just have to go along with it. Brexit wants you to feel powerless. Brexit is authoritarian but doesn't want to admit it's taking power from you not back from the EU.

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RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 09:16

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-english-nationalism-working-class-pride-racism-division-emily-thornberry-flag-a7677276.html
The rise in nationalism after Brexit is nothing new – the proud Englishman has always been patriotic

This was published yesterday. Worth a read.

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Peregrina · 13/04/2017 09:22

It's this Anglosphere bollocks and historical revisionism and blindness.

Which I think is a cloak for racism, because it's really the White Commonwealth, and the USA they are talking about. They are not talking about Nigeria, Fiji, Ghana, Kenya, Tonga ...... India has gone and let the side down by wanting more visas for its citizens - or otherwise, like the Japanese in Apartheid South Africa, they might have got in classed as honorary whites.

Cynical, I know.

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 09:26

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
From stage of Government's own "fourth industrial revolution" Fintech conference, £1bn startup boss warns on loss of single market passport
...others, such as Facebook more upbeat there - but UK number 1 position in Fintech built on City, EEA Passport & access to top EU talent...
..as I recall @taavet arrived UK in '06 from Estonia, after working for Skype's @nzennstrom -so coming to UK under EU freedom of movement..
... ie arriving under Blair's FoM with no restrictions at a time when eg Germany had restrictions - sets up £1 billion company HQd in UK
- might argue that someone who had made some cash from Skype sale would have been freely allowed in to UK under entrepreneur visa, anyway?

ShanOrme @shanorme
I think his main point was that FOM gives growing companies access to a large pool of talent in the UK.

Steve Lawrence FRSA @SteveLawrence_
- the young entrepreneurs I know are headed for Berlin - it's inexpensive, progressive & supportive & increasingly ..
... English speaking & as FinTech grows its own peer2peer capital base the City loses its reason for being
what's fascinating is how English, which is everyone's favourite 2nd language, is now the glue holding ...
... pan EU entrepreneurs together - but Brits will soon be excluded from the club

ShanOrme @shanorme
Brits are already being excluded. We accuse other of not integrating but we are the biggest culprits, especially on a Global stage!

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RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 09:39

Which comes back to this from James Kirchick's The End of Europe:

A study from 2014 found that European migrants to the UK make an annual fiscal net contribution of £60 billion and 60% of the migrants from Western and Southern Europe are graduates (compared to 24% of UK born workers). To replace this level of "human capital" the UK would have to spend £6.8 billion on education annually.^

Obviously the government's response is to turn the screws on the education budget instead.

We want a fourth revolution but that relies on free unfettered access to markets. Which Brexit removes. And the EU has an incentive to ensure happens so they can be home to any possible revolution rather than us.

It's utterly bonkers.

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woman12345 · 13/04/2017 09:40

proud Englishman has always been patriotic
I think that as football was appropriated by oligarchs and stolen from the working class by the bourgeoisie in the 1990s onwards, nationalism became more ridiculously and abhorrently foregrounded. In a game which only works as an international proletarian meritocracy it's all the more absurd.

It doesn't have to be this way. Look at the German football club organisation and the way their fans offered up their homes to rival supporters after last week's explosion.

In the 1970/80s young people(across the cultural spectrum) in England and the US in a different way, were much more aligned to the pop culture sub group they identified with: pinks, hippies, mods, northern soul and rastas. This nationalism is an invented piece of nonsense from the alt righters. Never underestimate the fury of a a rejected conservative.

All those nurtured tech industries, lost. Are we all supposed to be Rosie the Rivetter filling Saudi arms orders? Sad