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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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Thread gallery
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HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 22:54

though it helps to remember that America essentially created and armed the Taliban ...
and the IRA

HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 22:54

sorry, I meant funded them, not created them

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 23:01

Time to call it a night - thanks to all who have engaged in good faith and without name-calling. As you can probably tell, I care a hell of a lot about the fragile peace of our world and am afraid of a potential future when the bars in that graph go marching up again, as they have already begun to do.

Mistigri · 12/04/2017 23:04

OK so that's an interesting but remarkably one-sided article (American financial support for the IRA gets not a mention).

This caught my eye:

General Alexander Sakharovsky, head of the KGB's First Chief Directorate, famously said in 1971, "Airplane hijacking is my own invention," referring to the Palestinian Liberation Organization's hijackings. In the 1950s and 60s there was, on average, five hijackings a year; in 1969, Palestinian terrorists hijacked 82 aircraft.

I remember news coverage of hijackings when I was a kid; doesn't happen any more. Good example of how improved intelligence and security, and international cooperation, can be used to help solve terror issues.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2017 23:35

When all is said and done, I'm more likely to be killed by a cow or a vending machine than a terrorist, much less one who just happens to be a refugee, means I'm not terribly bothered about the 'threat' posed by refugees.

The very fact we even discuss the subject says it all in terms of hysteria.

Why are we not hysterical about all those vicious vending machines?

Ah yes. Racism.

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whatwouldrondo · 12/04/2017 23:47

By the way a little tardily to the debate totalitarian control in China an was also achieved by psychological rather than actual control. It was about spreading the terror that you would be marked out as different / non conformist and therefore vulnerable to being turned in. It was far more effective than physical control because it reached as far as your personal thoughts. I heard it again and again in Burma too, after the elections, the joy and f being able to say what you think, because before you dare not say what you thought because you were never sure who might be listening and who might report you.

comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:01

RedToothBrush

Ah, the standard far left response: all concern about terrorist mass murder is really racism.

If that's right, then that would explain why there was no hysteria in the UK about the mass terrorism committed by the white Christian IRA between the 1970s and 1990s, right?

Except of course there was hysteria then. Bucketloads of it. So much for your silly argument.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:04

"All concen about terrorist mass murder is really racism".

However the reporting and reaction to cases of different murders/mass murders is different.

Shootings in the States for example, Muslim guy goes nuts whith a gun in a gay club, ISIS attack- BAN MUSLIMS.

Guy shoots a load of black people in a church - mentally Ill.

Murderers of Lee Rigby -TERRORISTS
Murderer of Jo Cox - Not reported as a terrorist.

See the difference?

CardinalSin · 13/04/2017 00:09

I still have to wonder wtf Joyce thinks this has to do with the EU Hmm

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 00:09

If you are worried about terrorist refugees you are either a) a racist b) being psychologically controlled by one.

Farage's dog whistle was bloody good.

The irony being that the more dog whistling going on, to led the rats like the piped piper does have an effect on self fulfilling prophesies in the end.

Please explain how Adrian from Kent fits into the nice neat anti-refugee rhetoric.

That's why I'm going resist biting on the whole debate as much as possible because that's what you are supposed to do and are being conditioned to do.

Until vending machines become less dangerous or there is a campaign to ban them, I'm not going to indulge it. Simply because that's how terrorism works.

As for NI Irish terrorism and there being no racism? Are you having a fucking laugh?!!!

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comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:12

Dannythechampion

Except you're setting up some straw men yourself.

Guy shoots a load of black people in a church - mentally Ill.

I assume you mean Dylan Roof - I'm pretty sure that was prosecuted as a hate crime and he went away for life.

Murderer of Jo Cox - Not reported as a terrorist.

I've said on this very thread that Mair was obviously a terrorist, and there was a big public debate on what his actions said about the Brexit side as a whole, even though they obviously didn't participate. I don't control what news sources call him.

The Orlando shooter and Rigby killers all claimed IS inspiration themselves.

You've chosen a poor set of examples to make your case.

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 00:15

Oh, and I'm not on the left. If anything I'm perhaps more to the right of centre than left. Much to my father's disappointment.

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comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:18

RedToothBrush

As for NI Irish terrorism and there being no racism? Are you having a fucking laugh?!!!

There's always been a degree of anti-Irish bigotry in the UK. But to say that the reason the mostly white Christian people of the mainland UK were hostile to the mostly white Christian Irish in the 70s, 80s, and 90s was because of racism is pretty inaccurate. The hostility was primarily a response to the terrorism the IRA were committing, not because the IRA were a foreign race or religion.

comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:20

RedToothBrush

Oh, and I'm not on the left. If anything I'm perhaps more to the right of centre than left. Much to my father's disappointment.

You probably would be right of centre ... in Mao's China Smile

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:25

"You've chosen a poor set of examples to make your case"

Not at all, Mair shouted "Britain First" as he struck his blows, yet the right wing press never called him a terrorist, yet he was.
Claiming alegience to ISIS is about the same as that. However Mair's mental health state was widely discussed, both the killers of Lee Rigby and the Orlando shooter had mental health issues, yet these were discussed as secondary to the Islamic element.

Dylan Roof? Well he was tried for a hate crime, but he wasn't described as a terrorist in the media, he would have been if he had been Muslim. Fox news even ran an online article about "Why didn't anyone help Dylan Roof" regarding his mental illness, do you think that would have happened if he had been muslim?

Sorry, those are the facts.

GraceGrape · 13/04/2017 00:28

What that graph shows more than anything is that terrorism is an age-old problem. (I guess Guy Fawkes was a terrorist). The groups and methods used have changed over time but it is interesting that there are actually fewer deaths today caused by terrorism than in the 70s/80s. I wouldn't have said this was a common perception, although I was a child in the 80s so I suppose would have been less aware of it. I was discussing terrorism with my class after the Westminster attack and told them that when I was their age, the IRA was seen as the biggest terrorist threat and I remembered all the bins being removed from railway stations after a bomb was placed in one. They were really surprised that terrorist attacks could be committed by "white" people, as that isn't the perception of terrorism in this country today. I imagine our children and grandchildren will still face the threat of terror, but who knows who the perpetrators could be.

The current trend by IS for "lone wolf" attacks is worrying as it will be harder to gather intelligence on them.

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 00:29

'Mainland UK'

Fuck me, are you trying to illustrate the point? Or just your ignorance.

Pray tell me then, why were the IRA formed and were rather pissed in the first place? I need a good laugh.

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comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:30

Dannythechampion

No issue with what you've written, except to say again that all I'm responsible for are my own opinions, and I have no problem with calling Mair a terrorist and probably Roof as well. Fox News is hardly representative of mainstream US opinion though - everyone knows it's a rightwing propaganda outfit.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:35

Yes, but the point is not what YOU think, its the way that it is presented to the world, and although Fox might be right wing, it is a very large part of the MSM in the US. As is the Mail, Sun, Times, Telegraph and Express here.

In fact the newspapers here shape the agenda, look at any of the Sunday shows and the reviews of the papers, the big ones are always represented, and their agenda's shape how things are reported.

comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:36

RedToothBrush

OK, I'll end on this simple question, and I invite anyone reading to consider it.

When the IRA were conducting their terrorism campaigns in England during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, were English people who voiced concerns about the Irish doing so primarily (a) because of their racism against the Irish, (b) because of their fear and anger at the terrorism the IRA were committing?

Now, human beings are complicated, so the reality was probably a mixture of (a) and (b). But to say that concerns about terrorism today are nothing but racism is ridiculous, because it implies that concerns about terrorism in previous decades were also nothing but racism.

Here's a tip - people hate terrorism, no matter what race, creed, or colour is doing it.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:41

"Here's a tip - people hate terrorism, no matter what race, creed, or colour is doing it."

Patronising.

People did voice concerns regarding the Irish in the 70s and 80s, in fact we jailed people who were innocent of crimes purely because they were Irish and in the right place at the right time. That's racism.

RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 00:43

Yes I know. We British are very good at calling our nasty actions things.

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RedToothBrush · 13/04/2017 00:46

Sorry, We British are very good calling our nasty actions other things. And thinking of a way to justify it to ourselves rather than thing about our contribution to sets of circumstances that lead to various types of conflicts.

We are not the whiter than white good guys we like to think of ourselves as, as a nation.

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comfortandjoyce · 13/04/2017 00:50

RedToothBrush

We British are very good calling our nasty actions other things. And thinking of a way to justify it to ourselves rather than thing about our contribution to sets of circumstances that lead to various types of conflicts.

Now who's making sweeping generalisations about entire groups? Just kidding.

We are not the whiter than white good guys we like to think of ourselves as, as a nation.

Of course we're not. That's why I find the constant appeals to our morality so bizarre.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:51

We definately are not RTB.

I had a discussion with a friend regarding the middle East and our long history of intervention there.

Coup D'etat in Iran in the 50s.
Balfour proclamation in 1917.
Invasion of Iraq 1914
Occupation of Iraq post WW1
Helping Saddam Hussein
Support for the Saudi's
Sykes-Picoult.

She had no idea about our long history and how many of the grievances against the west may have grown up.