The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandLady]

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Article 50 has been triggered (finally!).
Now we move onwards to the future 🍻

All welcome, as ever...

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There is abig question though what is a democratic process.
In other countries, they wouold NOT consider such a small margin a full on agreement for Brexit (and certainly not for a hard brexit).
They see it as more democratic to put limits (such as there must be at least 2/3 of the electorate voting in favour for the referendum to be binding). Others see referendums as NON democratic as they can be so open to abuse.

So the idea of it is 'democratic' and it needs ot be followed to the letter can be argued in the first place anyway....

What I do think is totally UNDEMOCRATIC is impose one version of brexit to everyone assuming that everyone voted for that version when we all know fully well (incl leavers) that this not the case.
There has never been anything in this vote saying that Brexit would be hard brexit (or a soft one and nothing else for that matter).

So I do really ressent anyone (eg TM and some leavers on here) who is so set into saying that Remainers are against democracy for wanting to check that people are STILL wanting that to happen whilst imposing their version wo checking with anyone of thats actually what they want....
It smacks of 'Im worried to loose that battle if we go back to the polls' as well as 'Im going to impose my pov no matter what'

Xpost

As as i see it, the view of the population change over time. Thats why we have some elections on a regular basis.
This referendum has no more value in representing what people want than any other vote.
If there is a clear movement against Brexit (maybe because the effect of brexit are becoming clearer and clearer or because people do noot trust the politicians that had convinced them itbwas a good idea or whatever other reason) the Im not sure why it would be undemocratic to have another vote and FOLLOW THE PEOPLE WISHES.

Situations change, opinions grange. Thats pretty normal and should ALWAYS be taken into account.

There is abig question though what is a democratic process.
In other countries, they wouold NOT consider such a small margin a full on agreement for Brexit

But this is not another country.
It is here.
And that was the decision democratically agreed by our parliament, prior to the referendum.

What I do think is totally UNDEMOCRATIC is impose one version of brexit to everyone assuming that everyone voted for that version

Agree to an extent.
But it's the job of Parliament to decide how they interpret & frame the ref result.

Perhaps if the other parties had done their job of opposition properly then we would not have ended up where we are.

The SNP block were petulant & truculent and used the ref result to further their indyref2 agenda.

Lib Dem just tantrummed & looked for any & every way to reverse/ignore the ref result.

Labour just argued and disagreed with everything that was suggested, and blew a lot of hot air about 'grip' & 'holding Tories feet to the fire' without even attempting to be grown up or pragmatic by proposing actual workable solutions & compromise.
They even ran an unworkable solution in their manifesto ffs.

Your points on the margin for the referendum are irrelevant. Yes, it could have been set up differently, but, it wasn't. It was set up, by our democratic process, with no margin or threshold requirement.

The time for discussing that was before the referendum. You can't wait for the result and then decide it wasn't set up how you wanted it.

There has never been anything in this vote saying that Brexit would be hard brexit (or a soft one and nothing else for that matter)

Both the Tory and the Labour manifestos include a commitment to Brexit, leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement. So whatever the referendum question was, the vast majority of MPs have been elected on the basis of those promises. The anti-Brexit party LibDems got trounced as did several individual anti-Brexit candidates.

Situations change, opinions grange

What, since last Thursday?

The Tories are currently ripping pages out of their own manifesto, so yes things have changed since last Thursday. May's sabre rattling, brexit at all costs is dead in the water. We will now hopefully get a pragmatic cross party brexit that is in the economic interest.

One thing I'll never understand about the liberal, caring, left - why are so many of them really aggressive & nasty?

Are they? Any evidence to support this apart from anecdotes?

Any thoughts on reported race hate crimes rising (40 odd % IIRC) after the referendum? Prominent remainers receiving death threats on social media?

Did someone say a swear on MN? That is so, so bad.

Are they? Any evidence to support this apart from anecdotes?

These threads can be your starting point on your journey to enlightenment!!

well I've certainly learnt how to deflect and dodge questions.

Ghost

Is it cocktail hour yet?

Democracy is not a single vote. It was not the referendum result alone.

For politicians its not about representing people who voted for you. Its all about understanding the nature of how people have voted - both for and against. Its about considering the interests of everyone in society, not just those who will keep you in power.

The 'will of the people' is a crock of shit which carries far to many assumptions and overlaid vested interests of a small select group over the top.

What has become increasingly clear to me is that the referendum embodied the failings of democracy in the years leading up to it and highlighted how people had lost faith in it.

I think there is a real need to promote democracy and to really explore its real purpose and meaning as it has been used in a way which is totally counter to what it is and should be in reality over the last twelve months. People need to be better educated in what it is and what is pillars are. Politicians need a kick up the arse in that too. It is far from a problem relating to people who aren't intelligent / stupid.

We most definitely should reopen the debate on the referendum result in this context. How is it that in a healthy democracy that lies about buses were perfectly acceptable? That's not democratic. That's bullshit.

If the result had been based on a better debate - and this includes coming from the remain side, who I think were utterly appalling and I have said this since before the day of the referendum - then I think it would have totally legitimacy. As it stands although the vote did favour leave, it was too close, there are too many assumptions about it and there are far too many questions that it raises that have not yet been answered either.

Most importantly what IS a better alternative to the EU and what the so called 'will of the people' is about that.

I am not sure I could stomach another referendum on that front, but I would welcome cross party talks/debate about this and a transparent approach from government about why they are making decisions. One that is in the national interest in a genuine sense and not about party point scoring.

This includes debates on why policy has put people in a place where they can't compete with people coming from the EU to here rather than an attitude that is focused on stopping immigration. If we put that focus there, we might have less need and less jobs that needed filling from abroad in the first place. That alone might slow down immigration.

It seems the word democracy has as many varients as the word brexit on MN

The word democracy is open to debate.

In practice though, it is categorically and constitutionally about MPs being represented to serve all the people not just those who vote for them. Whether they do that or not is another matter.

It is also categorically and constitutionally about the relationship between government, the courts and the media. They are supposed to keep all the other branches in check. This has not been working in the way it is supposed to, in several ways and for several reasons.

The fact we have lost that understanding does not change what democracy is. All it does is show how democracy has not been working in the way it should do.

Its about a constant ongoing debate that does not end. Which Nigel Farage above all others understands but seeks to misrepresent and deny for his own illiberal ends.

There are huge flaws in our democracy there is no denying. But to say that the result of the ref is simply democracy - because of the 'will of the people' is just wrong - not just flawed.

am totally chilled thanks charmageddon - more chilled than I have been for a while.

My point re "libtard" namecalling was that as most leavers are not people who use these terms nor are most remainers aggressive and nasty. I didnt say I had seen that word on this thread.
The BNP comment was on a thread a few months ago on the EU board likening extreme remainers to extremists in the BNP (because there are moderate BNP supporters obviously!).

Apologies for the "all" comment wrong - ended up doing what I was accusing you of which wasnt my intention.

Renegaging on manifesto promises and stuffing democracy -- not good - quite a bit of that happening already.

Agreed Red

However some seem to think last year was democracy at work this year it's not......

I fully agree that the opposition had been very silent until the election.

BUT there was also a real propaganda (still going on!) that anything else than hard brexitbwas againstthe will fo people.
There was no space left for anyone to air their pov (see the fact that JC got some time on TV and newspapers for explain his ideas ionly when the last campaign started). We still more or less never hear from thee LD or the greens, despite the fact a big proportion of peole have voted for them. Which means that all of those people are not represented within the political arena).
There was also a clear blackout in the Tories stopping anyone who as a soft brexiter to say so (just look at how many of them are saying thats what they want now)
And MPs who were from fully remain areas refused to represent their constituency pov and instead stuck on whatever their party was saying (hard brexit for tories, nothing for labour), no one of which was acceptable imo.
Plus a lot of other issues such as the pressure from the government on the BBC to support their pov positively (and never other people).

As far as I am concerned, this last year has shown how to govern the UK in an undemocratic way as any way to actually encourage debate has been shut down one way or then other.

I actually love how the fact there has been no debate is all down to the labour party fault btw.

Because leavers were all tories and remainers what? Labour? Ah no, not quite either.
But somehow the tories remainers .... havent been allowed to say a word (nor the soft leavers) but that's ok ....

Yep... so logical....

See, I was nodding along to your first post Pink, and then you tacked on the reductive 2nd post & you lost me.

It's no one parties 'fault' - it's all of them.

That's the point.

Where were the opposition?
Bickering & following their own agenda.
Exactly the same as those within the Tories - bickering & following their own agendas.

Why the obsession with needing to find an individual or group to 'blame'?

They're all as bad as each other.

See I do disagree that it was ALL parties fault.

I do think that the SNP and the LDs TRIED to have that debate. Whilst they come from a remain position I do think that they were also keen to push questions that were not being answered and needed to (and still need to be) answered.

I think the more the government and Labour pushed back against that debate the more it entrenched the SNP and LD position simply because there were glaring problems that were being ignored - and the role of democracy was being undermined at the same time.

All the way through it has been about the need to bring the country together and answer this questions instead of just taking a shoulder shrugging attitude of 'not my problem' to crucial things like NI and EU citizens.

The point is that democracy is supposed to use debate to find solutions to the problems society has. Instead the last 12 months has been about ignoring them and pretending they will go away if you are aggressive enough and hope that people will just roll over and accept what you tell them.

'Will of the People'. I hope we never ever have to hear that crock of shit again. There is no such thing. In a democracy you do not listen to the tyranny of majorities alone. You listen to a range of voices, and whilst you might follow a certain path that most prefer you also have a fundamental duty to minorities too.

It's a complete cop out to say all parties are as bad as each other. The Tories let the Brexit cat out the bag it is on their watch. Today we find out inflation is 2.9%, strong and stable I'm sure.

The gutter press were ferocious in their demands for hard Brexit, it was hard for people to get a word in edge ways without being dubbed remoaner. Thankfully people have seen through this as evidenced by the election result. Another Tory own goal.

The point is that democracy is supposed to use debate to find solutions to the problems society has.

Honest, open debate without hidden agenda is what has been lacking from all sides imo

Heckling, barracking, bullying, manoeuvring & pithy put downs is all very amusing but it doesn't give a coherent vision or future for the country and does not pass for debate.

It's a complete cop out to say all parties are as bad as each other. The Tories let the Brexit cat out the bag it is on their watch.

Is it?

The Tories did the right thing - gave us the referendum that had been denied us by John Major & promised since Tony Blair.

The design of the ref was voted through parliament.

After the ref, did all parties come together & offer up MPs to work on a x-party approach which would work best for Remain/Leave & the country?
No.

All parties bear responsibility for where we are now.

No the Tories delivered an attempt at a self serving referendum. Then a self serving election

Labour yes has been too busy in fighting but be honest the swing to the right would have never listened to any opposition...it wouldn't even listen to the arts

If May has said she broke it I think we should finally take her at face value..the first truth she has managed

The Tories have spent the last year banging on about hard Brexit. Meanwhile the pound bombed, inflation went up. The government of the day are solely accountable. They are now being punished for their arrogance and ineptitude. Good.

Not arts ...wets. Bloody phone!

The Tories did the right thing - gave us the referendum that had been denied us by John Major & promised since Tony Blair.

Anything right about what they did in the national interest, is very firmly undone by the manner in which they went about it I'm afraid. It was completely irresponsible and not in the national interest.

Bit early but Bananagio

I think in the same way that "racism" has been redefined for many people from its original meaning to "disagrees with me on immigration policy", there is a danger of redefining "democracy" away from old fashioned notions like honouring referenda and election results and fulfilling the policies you were elected on" to "whatever it takes for the middle classes and the establishment to get their way".

We shall see.