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Brexit

Sarcasm, condescension, mischaracterisation

200 replies

smashedinductionhob · 30/03/2017 10:30

I have been spending time on the Leave EU facebook page to try to see the other person's point of view.

I am picking up that there is a really strong reaction to being condescended to, having your words used against you, rhetorical questions, etc.

So my question to those celebrating A50: when people debate with you, how does the style of the debate make you feel/act? Does it make you rethink you views or does it harden them?

Thanks.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 30/03/2017 22:34

"OP, I think youve got your answer here."

Really?

NinonDeLanclos · 30/03/2017 22:38

Caroline

Ya rly. Unless you can frame the tank of the £/$ by around 18% as a 'positive'. Rising inflation...The relocation of teams from AIG, Lloyd's, Goldmans... Insecurity for EU citizens...The number of EU nurses applying to work here drop by 90%...

Carolinesbeanies · 30/03/2017 23:29

The element... no theyre not personal attacks, theyre the common dogmatic theme. Remainers are right. Why indeed should there even be a debate?

EnjoyYourVegetables · 31/03/2017 00:05

Thanks op for posting the link earlier!

Peregrina · 31/03/2017 06:10

Corcory
We have been continuously asked for our reasons for voting and when we mention anything it's scoffed at. My tendency to paraphrase my comments with 'I feel' or I think' has been mocked and derided as of course the remainers all know it is going to be a disaster!

I don't think that is entirely true, or certainly not all of us have mocked. You have consistently said that you don't like the current immigration policies, and I may be paraphrasing here, but it's something of a white man's club and discriminates against citizens of the rest of the world. I don't disagree with you. I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that discriminatory policies have been pursued zealously by the Home Office, particularly with one Theresa May at the helm. Nor do I think it's unreasonable to ask whether you see any signs of her behaviour being moderated?The signs IMO are not good - she went off to India with great fanfare talking about trade deals with them, and came back much more quietly when it was found that one part of the price for this would be more visas for Indian citizens.

I see that as debate, and not mockery.

TheElementsSong · 31/03/2017 07:14

theyre the common dogmatic theme

Nope, still not getting it. If a pp has a clear opinion on any subject, how else are they supposed to express it? Confused

Should every post be couched in clouds of tenderly-expressed caveats to cushion their impact on viewers? That would make most forum discussions impractical and grind conversations to a standstill.

GreenPeppers · 31/03/2017 09:19

corcory the thing is the same happens the other way around.
Remainers are asked again and again to explain themselves, they are told to just stop remoaning and of course all Leavers know that leaving the EU, regardless of how we do that, WILL be a success.

It's easy to say that Remainers just don't want to engage in the debate and stuck in their ways. But so are the Leavers!!

As far as I am concerned, Brexiters have been 'moaning' (to reuse the word they use ab Ur Remainers) fir the last 30 years since the referendummthat took the UK in the EU. They've scoffed at EY decisions, they grumbled and shouted that 'it's not fair' at decision of the EUBor the ECJ.
Well I would like the same thing happen with Remainers. It would only be fair to allow Remainers to grumbles and moan about Brexit for the next 40 years too, don't you think?

Because what's what a democracy is. The possibility to express your opinions even thu Go they are the opposite of whatever the government wants to do. And to not have to change your POV because the other side think you should.all that wo being scoffed at.

surferjet · 31/03/2017 10:18

Absolutely! Nothing wrong in complaining for the next 40 years, but you need your own Nigel Farage & a dedicated party like ukip. If it wasn't for NF we'd still be in the EU, that is a fact, so get organised & get on with it - although it will take years before you have any credible arguments because it will take years to complete the Brexit process, so you won't know what you're complaining about?
Plus they'd have to be another referendum.

Olympiathequeen · 31/03/2017 11:01

there is no evidence that Leavers have been moaning about the EU in any great number for 30 years. From my experience I've only seen a major dissatisfaction with the EU for the last 10 years or so when it became clear this wasn't just a trading partnership but a political one.

Peregrina · 31/03/2017 12:01

there is no evidence that Leavers have been moaning about the EU in any great number for 30 years.

Farage has been grumbling at least since 1992. Some people on these threads agree with him and try to make out that it was their major concern. I think we can say that there have been grumbles for approximately 25 years, but I do agree that the average person, i.e. most of us really neither knew nor cared until the Press and the Tory right wing whipped up anti EU fervour. So perhaps the six years of Tory austerity would be an accurate refection?

WrongTrouser · 31/03/2017 12:39

Thanks for the Flowers etc.

I wanted to explain why I have namechanged and why I think this nastiness needs to stop. Bare with me if this seems a digression, it is relevant to the thread.

I have been reading on Feminist Chat about the attacks on womens' rights in the pushing ahead of the more extreme transactivists agenda. I am very concerned about this, particularly wrt how it will effect young women and girls. Some posters have been talking about how to get involved in various ways (writing to MPs, Twitter and other sm) and I wanted to join in. Whilst reading I noticed names of a few remain posters who have been quite vociferously insulting to leave voters on MN. I didn't know how they would react to a leaver joining the discussion (sad to say) and I didn't want the Brexit discussion to spread into Feminist Chat. My initial reaction was to keep my distance from posters who have been quite unpleasant, but I told myself that this is a different issue and that we should be able to put our Brexit differences to one side. For this reason, and because some feminists on Twitter have been hounded and doxed by transactivists, a different user name seemed a sensible option.

I then ventured onto Twitter and started following some gender critical women and joining in the conversation about womens' rights. I was prepared for nasty insults from some of the more unpleasant transactivists and although I haven't receieved any personally, have seen some pretty vile stuff retweeted (which is done to show the tactics being used, not to condone).

What I did receive on Thursday morning was a couple of tweets insulting me as a leave voter calling me stupid and racist, from none other than some of the gender critical women I had been following.

The irony of using exactly the same tactics that are decried in the transactivists of throwing insults to try to shut down debate seems to have been lost on them.

In my view, the world and this country are getting increasingly complex, politically. Who is liberal, illiberal, tolerant, intolerant, left or right wing? It is just all over the place, with people who think of themselves as tolerant liberals behaving in the opposite way.

There seem to be a set of people who have a list of topics on which there is an "answer" handed down from above which is correct. No further exploration or discussion is required. No further attempts to understand why some perfectly sensible people have come to a different conclusion. No humility to think that, perhaps, if most of your Brexit related predictions so far have been wrong perhaps you really don't know the future and perhaps other people's predictions are just as likely as yours to be correct.

I know we're not all on the left, but I am. Or was. I don't know what the left is anymore since lots of people who consider themselves to be left-wing think I am some kind of antichrist. I have lost left wing friends or become distant because they can't seem to find it in themselves to respect my views on Brexit. If people can't start to accept that people have different views and that is okay and they should still be treated with civility then frankly, politics in this country is going down the pan at a great speed.

I was angry about bear's attempt to paint my namechanging as some sort of character flaw. It was done for what I though of as good reason - to be able to join in with political campaigning on MN. I have now given up on this (cue "snowflake", "victim card"). I have never misled or deceived. The worst I think I can be accused of is technical incompetence in namechange fails - shoot me.

I reject totally the suggestion that I namechanged because I do not want to stand by my views. I don't want other people's problems with my views to stand in the way of being able to campaign together on an unrelated issue. This is not the same thing. I suppose the only criticism I would accept on this is naivety - I suppose I expected that others would likewise put their Brexit difference to one side but obv this is not the case.

I just want to ask pp who resort to name-calling and nastiness to consider, in themselves, 1) what you are hoping to achieve by it? and 2) what you think the actual effect is? and 3) who do you think benefits and suffers, in the end, from the division?

Anyway I am off for a period off MN and Twitter purdah as I really need a break.

Flowers to all you lovely posters, leave, remain and otherwise and [raspberry blowing emoticon] to anyone who isn't so lovely.

WrongTrouser · 31/03/2017 12:43

Just to clarify in case it sounds like I am saying that the insulting tweets were from MNetters on Twitter, I'm not. They probably weren't.

smashedinductionhob · 31/03/2017 12:46

so many good comments, so much to think about, it is cheering me up.

PS sorry about the TMI about science spin-outs.

One thing that's quite hard about online debate is that people don't really bring their credentials with them so it really is a case of not being an expert. It can be really odd on mumsnet if you delve into areas that you have expertise on and get contradicted.

Also you realise that a lot of your own so-called expertise is only authoritative when the rules of the game are the rules you usually play by.

So for instance in my legal field there is one set of case law that is important to lawyers but a completely different set of cases that make the news and that people know about because they tie in more to the effect of people's lives and businesses.

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smashedinductionhob · 31/03/2017 12:48

so re the rules of the game. I think a lot of remainers brought their experience to bear but kept forgetting that the rules were not the normal rules. When we didn't get the answers that we'd get if we were playing on our own pitch the temptation was to assert our own expertise more loudly and turn to each other and tut.

least ways that's what I did..................

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smashedinductionhob · 31/03/2017 12:50

back later.....

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Bearbehind · 31/03/2017 12:57

wrong I wasn't being nasty by mentioning the NC's, if you felt that was the case I apologise, I was simply making the point that it is more than a little unfair for you to make comments about the posting style of other people when you have posted on the same subject under multiple names hence it's harder to determine your 'style'

TBH I don't understand your logic in NC anyway- If you want a different user name on other threads to keep the subject matters different that's fine but you'd been posting under a different name on threads in this section of MN which defeats the object of NC doesn't it?

As for people hounding and abusing others on Twitter, that is awful. Feeling are running high but there's no excuse for that at all.

smashedinductionhob · 31/03/2017 13:25

It's like the normal adult rules of engagement are gone and it goes back to playground (all of us I mean).

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WrongTrouser · 31/03/2017 13:33

Thank you Bear

FWIW I don't quite understand your point about me criticising other people's posts even though I name change. I am objecting to people posting nasty and insulting comments. I don't do that, whatever name I am using so I don't really see the relevance, but as so often before, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

TBH I don't understand your logic in NC anyway- If you want a different user name on other threads to keep the subject matters different that's fine but you'd been posting under a different name on threads in this section of MN which defeats the object of NC doesn't it?

You are right, there is no logic - I put it down to incompetence and laziness on my part.

notangelinajolie · 31/03/2017 13:35

Michael Portillo made an interesting point on This Week. Alistair Campbell was being interviewed and he (MP) thought that AC was doing a very good job for the Brexit camp. And said that the more AC and people like Farron and Clegg campaigned against Brexit the more the general public would support it.

GreenPeppers · 31/03/2017 13:37

WrongTrousers I fully agree with there.
Nastiness and name calling etc... is never the right tactic.

I think that some people find it hard to make the difference between saying 'this is stupid because xxx' and 'you are stupid' which is an insult.

I'm still not convinced at all about Brexit Wink and as we still are in the EU and haven't even started negociations, i don't think that any of the 'predictions' can be said to be right or wrong yet. So I'm reserving my judgemnet on that.
I do have major issues with the way debate has been stifled in the political arena (and on forums like this TBH). I have major issues with the democratic process. And with the way things are done.
Maybe the issue here is our politicians who have no issue threatening other people (even if with veiled threats). If they can do that, why not everyone else? :(

howabout · 31/03/2017 13:37

smashed I do appreciate what you are trying to do but there is a very long way to go. If you were to read through a lot of the Leave posters histories you would realise that a lot of them are at least as well qualified as you or indeed any of the other Remain posters. The normal rules of engagement do apply but the mistake is in assuming just because you are meeting a bunch of Mums in the playground none of them have a hinterland beyond that - I get it a lot as a SAHM and so am perhaps somewhat oversensitive. My starting assumption as I said yesterday, to much ridicule on the WM thread, is that everyone is equally well qualified to vote and act in their own best interests and their opinions are of equal value in informing debate and I stand by that.

GreenPeppers · 31/03/2017 13:40

Actually I agree with that point too not
Because they are campaigning against Brexit by being very negative about it and telling people what to do and that they were wrong about their vote. It's bound to annoy people.
What you don't hear (and never have btw, even much much before the referendum campaign) is how great the EU, what it has brought to the UK etc... you never heard about the strengths of the EU and what it does bring to us (not always directly) etc...
How can you unite people around a project that they can not feel enthousiastic about because no one has never made the project appealing??

smashedinductionhob · 31/03/2017 13:55

I agree there is a long way to go but let's face it, we've got time!

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howabout · 31/03/2017 14:01

Absolutely smashed and I already detect some heat going out of the debate now that it looks like the UK and the EU are on the same page re the negotiations Smile

Green I agree with you on the need for a positive message to be persuasive. Alex Salmond and co, were imo rightly, highly critical of Project Fear. Obvs they do not stray much towards it even now because that would be to highlight the dangers of Scottish Independence.

Bearbehind · 31/03/2017 14:12

You are right, there is no logic - I put it down to incompetence and laziness on my part.

Lol! We can all be guilty of that Grin