Sarcasm, condescension, mischaracterisation

[smashedinductionhob]

I have been spending time on the Leave EU facebook page to try to see the other person's point of view.

I am picking up that there is a really strong reaction to being condescended to, having your words used against you, rhetorical questions, etc.

So my question to those celebrating A50: when people debate with you, how does the style of the debate make you feel/act? Does it make you rethink you views or does it harden them?

Thanks.

Wrong you seem to be complaining that leavers are pigeonholed but in the same breath appear to pigeon hole remainers.

Two things have made me very curious on this thread.

1. What the heck is happening after 1st April in the EU, Scaryteacher . Don't say April Fool.

1. Probably confidential, but very curious who semi-famous scientist client is, Smash . Any hint?

I just want to add, I think May talks bolleaux too, Ghost. But for a gov't who is pressing for trade deals not to bring any other baggage, I'm at a loss as to why she just makes that little threat to say we might not give you heads up on a threat and just let people die if you don't play trade ball as we want. It is just a bit hypocritical.

Also, I think it would be simply ridiculous if anybody who is not May takes my view about her and her comrades politicking personally.

Charming bear

I think that's really unpleasant actually and I'm a bit shocked as I thought we had come to be on reasonable terms over the months. My bad.

The reason I have been namecjanging is because 1) sometimes I post about mental health issues and don't necessarily want my posts all linked up together

2. I have been on the feminist board talking about gender critical issues and going on Twitter to challenge some antifeminist crap.

I didn't want all this linked up, and sometimes post under different names in Referndum, but e never misled, as you know from my corrections.

Anyway, thanks for that bear That's me out of MN now, I think. It's too much. I thought it was supposed to be supportive for parents. Ha fucking ha.

I've also mostly stayed off these threads, mainly because I don't think they get us very far. As far as I can see, people are entrenched in their views; if people bother to post, it's usually because they believe very strongly that their position is correct.

I read and analyse evidence for a living and I've tried to bring that approach to my reading of these debates. I've seen some pretty shitty, smug and condescending things said on both sides and the standard of evidence presented has been patchy (again on both sides). What's become very clear to me, however, is that the idea that an echo chamber exists on only one side is ludicrous.

I suggest that if posters on either side of the debate want a thread to speak only to other leavers or remainers, they should say so and if they're up for a debate they should signal that too. That might make for a more civilised discussion as these free for alls have not worked very well.

I could be wrong but I sniff Davis behind these threats (including the better no deal than a bad one) - it's of a piece with incompetent spiv. Maybe Fox too. I can't see Hammond supporting or coming up with them.

It's got to be someone with poor taste and poor judgement (which admittedly could apply to the whole cabinet).

It's the kind of grandstanding that mediocre businessmen take seriously but no-one else.

Why is it ' unpleasant' wrong?

You are condemning other posters, I'm pointing out you aren't without blemish either, whatever your reasons.

It's all getting a bit 'special snowflake' round here.

We are where we are.

No one has any idea where we are heading, not least those in charge of Brexit.

Some people accept that i.e. leavers, others are really, really angry about that i.e. Remainers.

It doesn't change anything though and doesn't give us any answers.

Only time will tell now.

smash So I have this client- sort of semi-famous scientist - and she posted on 24th June that what had happened was that we hadn't listened. I totally agree and the Scientific community generally has had a huge mea culpa that they thought that they could win the debate just with facts and debate. They did not understand as most of us did not that emotions were taking hold. It was a complete shock when we heard Daily Mail speak from my parents who are Liberals , and totally applauded us taking our children overseas when we were getting all sorts of flack from the "metropolitan elite" (are you listeningsurferjet ) about how they would never get into the right schools and universities if we did so why on earth would you stimulate and open a child's mind not to mention cheering their grandchildren who have made lives in the EU and beyond. It was too late to try and sway their views with rational argument. Try and do so to my intelligent retired teacher mum and you just got /get cat's bum and the accusation that you are a remoaner, a Londoner, subtext unable to understand anything about the place I grew up in I really do not know how you address such tribalism and it actually breaks my heart that this rift has opened up in my family

Some sort of reverse snowflake?

Bear, I don't think that is entirely fair about name changing. If someone admits to a name change fail, they are alerting to it.

Also, lots of people come up with name changes. Because of seasons or they like a more catchy one.

The problem is that for a debate to happen, people have to acknowledge real-life difficulties, like what happens when the NI/ROI border becomes the EU's external border, or what happens to ro-ro traffic on brexit day at ports which are not equipped for a vast increase in customs procedures.

It is absolutely not impossible to discuss these things with leavers - I have had discussions about Ireland with semi on here, and there are whole threads full of this stuff on the Leave blog run by Richard North (where both leavers and remainers post, often largely in agreement on basic issues). But it does require that both sides have some grasp of the technical detail (we don't have to understand everything to have an opinion, but it helps to acknowledge that some issues are extremely complicated).

Bearbehind
Why mention a posters name-change?
It's not against the rules to NC ( providing you're not doing it for dubious reasons ) posters can name change every week if they like.

It's really quite feasible that a regular - on any board - may wish to NC to post about a personal matter elsewhere - you really punch below the belt don't you

I caught a quick glimpse of IDS on screen, being interviewed. He had a little smile on his face as he said (paraphrasing) "It is just a little something in there to remind them". You know a little blackmail about potential loss of lives.

I must admit, I never likes his ideology, so my view of him hasn't diminished any.

I agree with WrongTrousers as long as it is also OK to say that the same things happens with Leavers too.
There are Leavers who are happy to discuss and explain their POV. But also plenty more who are very happy to insult, put down anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I have to say smash I don't quite see what sort of exchange you would like to have.
If it isn't the 'adversarial debate' as you say, what would it be? How can you xchange pov and explain why you dint agree with xxx wo being 'adversarial' in that your ill have to tell that person that 1- you dint agree and 2- why you don't (I'm assuming this is what you find adversarial?)

Fwiw, I think everyone on both sides are very touchy an dfeelings are running high. Because, let's be honest, there is a hell of a lot at stakes, incl the biggest change that the country ever had in the last century. With the possibility of the famous 'cliff hedge' that is scaring a lot of people. On the other side, some people have been fighting to 'get' Brexit for 40 years so they are quite scared too, but scared that their 'victory' will be taken from them.
Two groups of people, both very scared for different reasons. This will be hard to make them sit down and have a nicey nicey discussion TBH.

wrong

surfer if a poster blatantly name changes then critisise other people's posting style it's rather moving the goal posts isn't it?

I'm not certain you're above a name change; 'brexitlandlady' seems to have a similar penchant for emojis to you

Anyway, this is all just muddying the waters to avoid discussing the reality of the fact no one has a clue how this will work out isn't it?

WrongTrouser

Hope you're ok x

I agree Green. Think some people need to re-read the pub threads.

I also think that it's easier to have some debates in a calm manner when everyone is starting form the same level.
So you dint have one person explaining a complicated bit of issue with Brexit and the other getting all worked up because it's a lot of bolloxs because, in effect, they dint know enough to understand OR what they bring is on a completely different level, shutting down the discussion in the process.

Distract and derail bear.

I can assure you I'm not the starter of the new pub threads.
But you picking on WT over her NC is way out of order.
I've had it with you.

I name-change lots too. I have two jobs, each fairly unusual, and the combination of them is probably unique in the UK. (wish that meant I got paid more but hey ho). I talk about them both so have to name-change or avoid talking about anything personal (like my bloody marvellous spice drawer thread).

link to the Richard North thread please Mistigri? (the LeaveEU page does have some unpleasant people on it, it has to be said).

I like this thread. Have to get an early night though. Job2 in the morning.

PS re the scientist, she is one of hundreds you occasionally see on the telly and it all looks glamorous and pre-referendum she probably could have got a meeting with the prime minister no problem but there's NO bloody money in science start-ups it is SO HARD to succeed so she doesn't own her own house and frequently sleeps in the office. Thankfully our venture capital investors are nice patient kind people.

.." simply that we've made a crap decision with negative consequences. "

Really?

"It's the kind of grandstanding that mediocre businessmen take seriously but no-one else."

Really?

"I really do not know how you address such tribalism"

Really?

"they dint know enough to understand OR what they bring is on a completely different level, "

Really?

OP, I think youve got your answer here.

surfer, carry on with your outrage if you feel like it.

I wasn't 'picking on' anyone. I was pointing out that condemning others posting style when you flit between user names yourself is hypocritical.

OP, I think youve got your answer here.

None of those quotes are personal attacks on posters, but as far as I can tell are expressed opinions of various pp. In what way are they so unutterably offensive that they "answer" the OP?