Sarcasm, condescension, mischaracterisation

[smashedinductionhob]

I have been spending time on the Leave EU facebook page to try to see the other person's point of view.

I am picking up that there is a really strong reaction to being condescended to, having your words used against you, rhetorical questions, etc.

So my question to those celebrating A50: when people debate with you, how does the style of the debate make you feel/act? Does it make you rethink you views or does it harden them?

Thanks.

[Dapplegrey2]

I'm trying to keep an open mind because no-one really knows what will happen,

Indeed. No one knows what will happen as no one can see into the future. It would be interesting to make a list of some of the predictions on mumsnet of all the terrible things that are apparently going to happen to the UK and revisit the list in 5 years time.

[RufusTheRenegadeReindeer]

What really hardens my position is when I hear "I voted Remain but I completely get why others did not and accept that we are leaving BUT WHATABOUT blah blah blah blah blah

Dont get this bit...but then i quite often dont

So do you mean that someone who voted remain should just say what they think with out the caveat

[RufusTheRenegadeReindeer]

Or leave obviously

Its just i think its politer

Is that a word doesnt look like a word

So if i am having a debate with a friend i think it is less aggressive to say 'i see what you mean/I understand but i also think'

Sometimes i say you are completely wrong...but usually if they are completely wrong and i cant hold my temper

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Getting tired of leavers playing the victim card. Whether you like it or not you were on the same side as Dacre, Murdoch, Farage et al. Remainers have been branded traitors, enemies of the people and in extreme cases told to leave the country if they don't like it. This sort of stuff is all over social media and quite easy to find.

[Olympiathequeen]

Libelled, bullied, misrepresented, belittled.... I could go on.

I did start a thread asking Leavers only to respond, so that I could get an idea of what other Leavers were hoping for and expecting in the coming months/years. Of course the usual suspects piled in, were rude, nasty, condescending and went out of their way to pull my, very moderate, views to pieces. I was literally bullied off my own thread.

Most of the Remainers who post sound a bit deranged tbh with their ranting.

So personally I wouldn't bother if you are asking for a nice cosy Leavers chat room .

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Most of the Remainers who post sound a bit deranged tbh with their ranting.

You complain about name calling and respond with the above. Beautiful

[smashedinductionhob]

Sounds like people from both sides feel bruised.

I'm not surprised.

I think we can do better.

[TheHoneyBadger]

Another amazed by the assumptions and find them really opposite to the reality around me. In my family the usually more liberal/left leaning of us voted leave and the more right wing voted remain.

For me the key was whether you believe in centralisation and consolidation of power or in keeping power and those with it close to the stakeholders. I find it deeply confusing that some Scottish people can be so pro EU and anti UK when for me, as I say, the key factor is centralised or decentralised power.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Boils down to whether you trust the Tories or not. They've been given a blank cheque with Brexit to do whatever the hell they want. I doubt that will benefit ordinary people.

[Corcory]

Ghost - And you've just done it again! 'Getting tired of leavers playing the victim card'! I would call that belittling. And lumping us all together with Farage, Murdoch et al! This thread is about what goes on on MN not what's going on all over other social media sites.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

Yep Corcory, it's the same old, same old.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Corcory - you will see that their have been countless "westminster" threads on here discussing Brexit in great detail citing articles, academics etc, exchanging views and ideas. I've seen no evidence of name calling there.

There is the pub thread and other threads that have been divisive. So basically there is something for everyone and you can dip in and out as you chose.

[smashedinductionhob]

I think one thing that happens for the losing side (my side) is that we try to make a genuine enquiry and to be measured but then our emotions bubble up. Or they tend to in my case anyway.

[Mistigri]

Remainers have been branded traitors, enemies of the people and in extreme cases told to leave the country if they don't like it

The idea that it is remainers who are poisoning the debate - when newspaper headlines call judges "enemies of the people" for doing their job and remain activists in the public eye have been abused, threatened and in one case murdered - makes me extremely angry.

In my experience most remain voters feel completely disenfranchised and entirely unrepresented by the present government - and this includes many natural Tory voters working in manufacturing and finance. I think in the circumstances that most remainers have been exceedingly tolerant (especially those whose jobs or families are directly affected).

[time4chocolate]

Ghost with all due respect that is a load of guff - the Westminstenders threads are a complete echo chamber, one or two hardy leavers continue to post occasionally but usually it's completely fruitless, the Brexit Arms gets ambushed too (you say it's divisive), yet we do you the courtesy of not posting on the 'Quiet Sad Corner' thread. Most of you are totally disrespectful to others views. Quite frankly I would be embarrassed and ashamed if I was a remainer.

[WrongTrouser]

I think as this thread shows, there are some posters on both sides of the referendum divide who try really hard to have a reasoned and respectful discussion. For example, ron although having very strong remain opinions always puts them across in civil way. Then again, there are other posters, again on both sides but I would say far more on the remain side, who seem unable to address those they disagree with without sneers and insults. I think it is a real shame. I am a confirmed leaver but I don't have all the answers. I think one of the reason I discuss Brexit on MN so much is to try to develop my ideas and understand the minefield which is UK politics at the moment. Sadly I often have to leave threads. Can't read the Westminsterenders anymore which is a shame, there are some wise and really interesting remain posters, but then a couple who just throw insults every now and then. Similarly the pub is fine mostly, but every now and then awful. I don't know what the answer is

Thanks for starting this thread OP

[smashedinductionhob]

you're welcome

and thanks again for respecting the quiet corner.

Someone mentioned Jo Cox being murdered. I was just wondering what she'd be doing, being as she was someone who liked to bring people together.

[Carolinesbeanies]

Good thread though. Ive not engaged on mn re the debate, for the simple reason it reflected the attitudes Ive met in the real world. No remainer Ive met yet is actually interested in understanding why I voted leave. Its all pre conceived stereotyping, or the campaign was a massive lie is a poular one. (Hence leave voters are stupid for believing the NHS bus thing etc etc)

When remainers (being v. generalistic) finally decide theyre prepared to listen to the 'other side' not simply try reeling in to then lecture how wrong leavers are, then Ill engage. But even now with this thread, Im wary its yet another baiting thread. I have however, noticed a softening amongst my remainer friends in RL. I think theyre getting tired too of the prevarication and Gina Millers latest threat to challenge today, hasnt been received any where near as warmly as her original challenge was. (Their tweets, hence why I stumbled over here to see if theres any heat in the mn kitchen.)

Ive not fallen out with any of them, quite simply because Ive refused to engage for over a year, and I wouldnt dream of criticising them about their beliefs or vote. Their vote was as valuable as mine. If any one asks me why I voted as I did, I say, because I could. For now, thats more than enough justification. Im really not interested in being told why I voted by people who believe they know everyones motivations, when in truth, they know nothing about me at all.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

Brexit is polarising and divisive by its very nature. Hardly surprising threads become echo chambers. Leave voters think Brexit is brilliant and remainers think it is a disaster. How do you meet in the middle? Brexit voters were celebrating yesterday whilst other people didn't know if they have a future in the UK. That is why Mays talk of unity is bollocks. Another layer of anger and division.

[smashedinductionhob]

not baiting

I think the thread is getting less and less baity as we go along.

So I have this client- sort of semi-famous scientist - and she posted on 24th June that what had happened was that we hadn't listened.

I had this great mentor too (south african journalist, became a lawyer) and he died but I just know he'd have said something totally unexpected.

that's where I'm coming from, trying to tune in to more open-minded people than me.

[surferjet]

Now A50 has been triggered things will calm down a lot ( on both sides! )
Leavers have nothing more to say/prove/whatever/ because getting A50 triggered was the goal - we'll be 'brexiting' for the next 2 years, & probably won't be completely 'free' for another generation, very few people can talk about every twist & turn for years on end.
& remainers, even the real fanatics, will eventually accept we're out of the EU & calm down.
The real venom is over.
That's not to say I think remainers should give up, but they'll have to wait decades before we rejoin the EU, not that I think we ever will - we're gone for good.

[Mistigri]

Brexit is polarising and divisive by its very nature.

I'm not sure this is completely true. Sure, the referendum was divisive - that's the nature of binary choices - but the aftermath did not need to be. There has been no move by the government to make remain voters feel that they are being listened to; indeed, the rhetoric is intended to deepen division, not to heal it.

Many remainers of my acquaintance would be genuinely satisfied with a pragmatic brexit along the lines campaigned for by some leading eurosceptics like the Flexcit group - who incidentally appear to feel as frustrated and disenfranchised as many remainers do, because their long-standing project has been hijacked by Johnny-come-lately racists and alt-reichers.

[WrongTrouser]

I do wonder if some posters are unable to put themselves in others shoes and understand how upsetting it is to be told you are no different to the far right, murderer of Joe Cox etc, and then if you object, to be told you are playing the victim card.

It's not difficult to understand that.

I think essentially, on the remain side, there are two types of posters. One set want to debate and discuss. The other set, and I don't say it to be offensive, it is just what I have observed, just want to vent their anger and to denigrate and belittle leave voters.

The first set plod along on threads month in, month out. The second set tend to peak every time there is an actual step towards Brexit (House of Commons vote, A50 triggered etc).

And actually now I read my post through I can see that the posters who throw horrid insults around are the second set and are perfectly aware of the effect they are having and that is their aim.

[Bearbehind]

wrong regardless of what you think of posters motives, at least most stand by their user name.

If I'm not mistaken you've had at least 2 other user names on these threads lately (because you've admitted to name change fails).

It does make one wonder why you'd do that?

[NinonDeLanclos]

refuse to address the fact that leavers have legitimate concerns

No remainer has advanced any positive or convincing argument as to why we should stay in

Unintentional irony?

If we were as crap a country as some remainers like to make out

No-one has said we're a crap country simply that we've made a crap decision with negative consequences. I can't compute insecurities around 'running the country down' - it's taking analysis and criticism of political decisions as personally, as irrationally as if it were family member. I think that's an anti-intellectual approach.

I would personally have much more patience with Leavers who could make a reasoned rather than emotional case for their vote.