Sarcasm, condescension, mischaracterisation

[smashedinductionhob]

I have been spending time on the Leave EU facebook page to try to see the other person's point of view.

I am picking up that there is a really strong reaction to being condescended to, having your words used against you, rhetorical questions, etc.

So my question to those celebrating A50: when people debate with you, how does the style of the debate make you feel/act? Does it make you rethink you views or does it harden them?

Thanks.

[smashedinductionhob]

[IndianWinter]

Absoluetly Carolinesbeanies. That's the narrative the daily mail, express, sun and the tori party, push and that's what I hear from my brexit voting family and neighbours. it's reflected in the rising nationalist sentiment, the slashing of public services and social support as well as the reckless 'we are going for WTO rule' if we don't get it our way.

[scottishdiem]

Carolinesbeanies - Whilst you were perhaps only focussed on one aspect of this - impact of immigrants on social housing we both know that immigrants getting to the front of the queue for social housing was both a fact for some, a lie for others and a total failure to understand housing lists. The housing shortage is the problem and immigrants get blamed. Yet the housing shortage is epically complex but was reduced to foreigners getting what they wanted over good Englanders.

[scottishdiem]

I second what WidowWadman said.

[RailwayCuttings]

"The housing shortage is the problem and immigrants get blamed."

In my part of the world there has been a great deal of building going on for two decades of mixed developments (housing assn, council & private purchase). There has been a shortage because so many dilapidated properties have not been upgraded and given over to the council waiting list, though I note that some parts of England are selling off such properties at £1 to people to do up.

If there had not been such a sudden and large increase in population in the last 20 yrs the housing shortage would be minimal. If it were not for those who came here here (for a few years or permanently) rents would not be so crazy, over-crowding would be less.

Half the semis in my immediate area are now let to overseas tenants.

Anyone who says that population growth is not the main driver and not so important is being disingenuous.

[IndianWinter]

railway, the economy is benefitting from immigration, you should ask why infrastructure is not being expanded alongside.

[scottishdiem]

RailwayCuttings

So over a generation the failure of politicians to respond to local housing needs gets only one source of blame. Of course, the economic drivers to even create the housing have in no way been influenced by an economy that uses immigrant labour?

Also, housing prices have risen everywhere. Including those very very very white areas unaffected by immigration and who voted brexit to make sure that they continued to be unaffected by immigration.

I suppose if you want an unchanging community, unchanging demand for any service and no need for local and national politicians to be adaptive then fair enough. Immigrants are to blame for the housing problems.

Of course, I am biased. I married a non-EU immigrant and have left the country because of Brexit and xenophobic policies driven by Daily Mail readers. Between us, my spouse and I earned almost three figures so not exactly what you would call a drain on the economy. But its hard to live in your own country when your spouse is part of so many many many problems. Brexit will make people like my spouse no longer welcome in the country (see recent idea for 5 year visas). Be interesting to see who gets the blame for poor government policies then.

[RailwayCuttings]

the economy is benefitting from immigration, you should ask why infrastructure is not being expanded alongside

The only benefit the economy is getting is from those high-end immigrants who earn a lot and pay a lot. The majority are NOT net contributors - get that out of your head. The only winners here are the private landlords. Most are on low pay, so they qualify for various subsidies such as housing benefit, discounted CTax, in-work tax credits, in-work pension credits, child benefit, maternity allowance, etc.

The amount they pay in tax & NI is dwarfed by what they receive back in the form of the above. That is not net contribution however much you want it to be.

There is another segment of workers (mostly construction), who are here illegally, work hard and pay their full whack of rent and receive no subsidies. They too are a small part of the housing squeeze.

Housing prices always rise when there is a heavy call on accommodation - yes, even in the ritzy areas. Don't know why this should be, but it is.

No govt can keep up with an ever-increasing demand for accommodation from without, and nor should it be expected to. In so many places every centimetre of space is now a block of flats being constructed - it cannot go on. We are in fact paying foreign workers from the public purse to be able to afford to live here. They definitely could not on their take-home pay.

[smashedinductionhob]

Hi Railway, would I be right in thinking you voted leave and a key reason was that you felt immigration was too high?

[Carolinesbeanies]

"Hi Railway, would I be right in thinking you voted leave and a key reason was that you felt immigration was too high?"

OP, the reason Railway voted as she did, was because she could. Youd be better served to make that your starting point.
The fact someone has engaged in debate regards one particular issue, doesnt mean you can automatically assume thats their whole motivation. Its just as likely, if railway actually lives in a house rather than on the streets, that housing was not her main personal driving force.

I liked your intention with this thread, however, it does indeed appear to be baiting despite your earlier denial, and sadly its simply a rehash of hundreds of threads before it.
With baiting in mind, and staying on topic, do you still want to ask Railway that question? Should Railway be the slightest bit interested in what you 'think' about her or what conclusions you jump to?

I understand Nick Clegg is a strong believer in managed immigration. He believes EU immigration has been too high and mis-managed. Am I right that I think he voted remain?

[scaryteacher]

Sorry Rondo have been on another discussion board elsewhere.

Yes, you made good a good case for those sectors, and whilst I respect your arguments, they were not enough to make me vote remain. I think the EU Institutions are averse and inimical to change, and that the bloc as a whole can't make decisions quickly enough to keep up with the modern world.....to do that it would need to change into a state in its own right (arguably that is the aim...it already has ' the dimensions of empire' as Barroso said in 2007). I think the continuing treatment of Greece is shameful and we will be seeing more of that in the coming months.

[smashedinductionhob]

Hi Caroline,

I just didn't know, so I asked Railway as I found what she has to say interesting.

Could you please explain what you mean by "baiting?"

[smashedinductionhob]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/01/outrage-makes-you-feel-good-but-doesnt-change-minds

I really hope a few people can make the time to read this -It explains what I'm getting at beautifully.

I might cut it out and stick it somewhere I can see it when tempted to lecture.

[NinonDeLanclos]

The only benefit the economy is getting is from those high-end immigrants who earn a lot and pay a lot

Not true at all. The economy benefits from low-paid immigrants who do jobs that British workers don't want to - fruit and vegetable picking & packing, 90% of which is done by overseas workers, mainly from E.Europe. See also cleaning, carers, hospitality, factory work, mini cabbing. etc.

If EU migrants aren't available for those jobs, they will simply be filled by migrants from Asia and Africa.

[woman12345]

Following on from that, smashed I have to wonder why there is so much attachment to anger. And in whose interests that attachment is.

However, we're in an interesting collision of Marxism, fascism and the commodification of psychologies and psychiatries. Interesting times.

[smashedinductionhob]

anger helps me cope with having a neighbour I don't like.

I am convinced that his position is wrong and that I appeased him for too long.

Anger helps me avoid self doubt.

[smashedinductionhob]

So I suppose anger is good when you are being abused?

What do you think woman?

[smashedinductionhob]

Anger is more from the heart, more understandable.

[woman12345]

Ummmmmm. smashed
Michelle said of Barak he's called 'no drama Obama' it worked?
Mandela achieved through strategy, not anger.


But I still wonder if the authenticity of anger, which is just one of the human traits, is being manipulated deliberately. Well, I'm not wondering, I can see it in the press and these threads here everyday now, and a child(17year old boy, a child to me) is in hospital in Croydon with a brain injury because of yet another racist attack, presumably through anger.

It's easy to mistake or conflate truthfulness and anger, if one has a limited understanding of the ways of the world.

Michelle said of Barak he's called 'no drama Obama' it worked?
Mandela achieved through strategy, not anger.
We, as women, know the politics of anger, both our own and how it's exercised by others.

Attachment to any emotion or idea brings suffering unless it's skilfully exercised.

How about strategic anger?

[woman12345]

repeated a couple of points there.

[smashedinductionhob]

Good points worth repeating though.

[Peregrina]

The energy in anger can be used to good effect if it is harnessed to promote change, and not either turned inwards or to destructive purposes. An immediate example I can think of was a lady who was angry about seeing homeless people on the street. She couldn't house them, but she could feed them, and opened up a soup kitchen to do so. Furthermore, it offered a place where they could be kept warm and dry and have a chance to wash. I don't doubt that there are many more people like this.

[woman12345]

Re posting from another thread, but please sign. After 26 years living and working here, Stoly Jankovic is incarcerated and to be deported on Tuesday. Strategic anger:
you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-the-shameful-deportation-of-kentish-town-s-stoly-jankovic

[smashedinductionhob]

Peregrinations,

I call that sort of anger indignation. Don't know if the distinction is necessary.

[RailwayCuttings]

The economy benefits from low-paid immigrants who do jobs that British workers don't want to - fruit and vegetable picking & packing, 90% of which is done by overseas workers, mainly from E.Europe. See also cleaning, carers, hospitality, factory work, mini cabbing. etc

The economy benefits in that things get done cheaply and the wheel goes round. But picking, cleaning, caring and factor work are low-paid and the workers' living expenses are subsidised from the public purse as explained above. Mini cabbing is work usually done off the books.

There are at least 1.6 million Brits unemployed (not incl the longterm sick) and govt has to find a way to get some of them back into work. What is the point of replacing them with overseas workers (who need to be housed); at the moment both are receiving financial support from govt. Unemployed thru benefits and the overseas workers with various subsidies, because these jobs are low pay. If only our own could take back some of these low paid jobs then at least we would be subbing our own. If that were possible, think how much accommodation would be freed up as they're already here.