who will be the Nexit?

[springflowers11]

France? will there even be an Eu in 5 years?

Investment has stalled because noone knows what they are investing in. Until Brexit has happened, we're a bit in limbo, so while I voted remain, i'm glad we're finally getting on with it - the sooner the better if it's got to happen.

Those who won't do care now because of how the older generation voted, probably didn't like the older generation all that much anyway and would have only been doing care out of duty rather than because they wanted to. Such people would have looked for any 'excuse' to avoid doing it anyway so this way they get to feel smug and rightous about what they knew would be an unpopular decision they'd be taking anyway...

One knock on effect, if house prices fall or rather increases stall, by the time the baby boomers need care, their homes might not be worth relatively what they are now (in realtion to it's buying power for care/other services). This could be a good thing for the next generation coming through wanting to buy family homes, but not all that good for a government that has banked on most of the baby boomers being able to fund the care they need via their assets. As a country, we might need a plan B for care if house prices fall/stall. (EU Immigration has been one of the upwards pressures on houseprices)

"been telling people who voted leave that they should not have done so, that their vote was wrong, irresponsible, reckless, xenophobic, ill informed, selfish etc, etc. "

Go look at the thread about remainers being condescending towards leavers, and look at the reasons laid out for leaving

They tick all of those boxes you laid up above. In fact, although I just delurked the other day, here and in other places what you find is that these views are challenged and remainers accused of bullying, sneering etc. Then people leave, and the little leaver groups just start repeating the same incorrect, ill informed, xenophobic rubbish. I'll list them below and outline why they are what you claim they are not.

School places are short because of immigrants. Not true.
The NHS is under pressure because of immigrants. Not True.
Immigration drives down wages. Not True.

All three of these are brilliant examples of being ill informed and xenophobic, one because the counter information is widely available, and two because when this is available still blaming immigrants shows a huge amount of prejudice.

Just a start, if you want me to shoot down the democracy arguments too its fairly easy, or those about our net contributions.

Even if you disagree with all of the above and for what ever reason want out of the EU, you aligned yourself with the uninformed, xenophobic bigots in order to win. For shame.

Even if you disagree with all of the above and for what ever reason want out of the EU, you aligned yourself with the uninformed, xenophobic bigots in order to win. For shame.

How condescending and sneering can you get.

People were given a choice and voted. You may not agree with the result as I don't, however some people's views are coming accross as superior and quite nasty.

If you're talking about the thread started by surferjet then you've conveniently missed out a lot of the well informed reasons laid out on there by posters.

This name calling is ridiculous from both sides.

Totally agree Piglet

If poorboy's friends begged their parents to follow a course of action and the parents did what suited them regardless I personally don't see why the children are duty bound to bend over backwards for them in old age?
The children have only resolved to do what their own parents did, i.e. not unduly taking into consideration the wellbeing of their relatives. It sounds fair to me. I suppose whether I would follow through with my resolve would depend on the relationship I have with my parents. But I'd be tempted and would feel majorly upset at being seen as collateral damage by my own parents.

Just a start, if you want me to shoot down the democracy arguments too its fairly easy, or those about our net contributions

Okay, you don't want a conversation. You just want to assert the situation as you see it and any one who thinks differently is talking bollocks. Yeah, not really interested thanks . Luckily for all of us, you are not running the country and you can sit and huff and puff about how incredibly right you are, and how unbelievable it is that we are not all bowing down to your obviously vastly superior knowledge and analysis but we live in a democracy and that's not how it works.

Immigration drives down wages. Not True

and yet from that bastion of leave, the Bank of England:

www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/Documents/workingpapers/2015/swp574.pdf

We live in a democracy which means that critique and dissent are perfectly fine.

"How condescending and sneering can you get."

Truth hurts don't it.

and that link wasn't for you Danny. I really couldn't be less interested in having a conversation with someone who doesn't even think the issue of democracy and the EU is worth exploring. It's for other posters and lurkers.

I think there will be an attempted Italexit . There have been anti-EU protests in Rome, and the population are fed up.

Which anti-eu protests are these in Rome? What scale were they on? Where have you read about Italexit?

40% under 30 unemployment, and EU countries are not helping Italy with the migrants from Africa by closing their borders.

True - and one of the main culprits is the UK

I love MN but sometimes I really wish there,was a hide poster button. Most pp on this thread are having a rational, civil conversation, even if they don't agree.

I really find it hard to understand why anyone thinks they are impressing anyone, or presenting their case in a good light, or achieving anything when all they can do is sneer and denigrate those they disagree with. It's not a nice look.

If you're going to use the BOE data you need to read what it actually says.

A 10 percentage point increase, not 10 percent, in immigrants working in a low paid sector lowers wages by 2%.

"Closer examination reveals that the biggest effect is in the semi/unskilled services sector, where a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants is associated with a 2 percent reduction in pay."

Further more, this is only if the number of immigrants working in the sector in the area equal 33% or more of the workforce.
However we only had 8% point increases in immigration between 2004 and 2006 and 2012 and 2014, in the first period wages grew.

Ha, try to look at what the data says before using it.

So a 10 percentage point increase e.g from 3% to 30 %, and only in the first year.

Yeah immigration has little to no impact on wages.

Of course the link wasn't for me, it doesn't show what you think it does.

FWIW I think Italy will remain, Greece will come out of the Euro, but remain in the EU.

I can and would discuss democracy within the EU, if people wouldn't keep referring to it as a dictatorship, or a behemoth, or making comments about faceless bureaucrats, because its all you get in the other direction.

Truth hurts don't it.

@DannytheChampion if you bothered to read my post you'll see that I voted remain.

You really aren't coming accross well at all.

Sorry, I was a bit wound up by a few things on another thread.

I'll take the kids to the park and calm down.

Apologies all, I'm just not having a good morning.

Yeah immigration has little to no impact on wages

Backtracking, and still sneering while you do it. Impressive. You really sound like the sort of person we should all be listening to.

Immigration drives down wages. Not True

Anyone who is interested can read the paper and decide whether they think it is saying there is no impact or not.

Well to be fair, I'd say that a 1.8 % decrease in wages, only when there is an increase of 10% points in immigrants working in a low paid industry or when more than 33% of people working in the industry are immigrants IS nothing.

Especially when you consider that even in low paid indusries wages grew between 2004 and 2006, real wages fell between 2007 and 2012, but immigration fell in this period, wages went back up between 2012 and 2014 when immigration rose again.

The impact of immigration is negligible, and in the real world its been small enough to say that it hasn't impacted wages.

I said that it had NO effect maybe should have used negligible.

Sorry, just channelling Lord Morgan of Glossop there. I don't usually resort to personal insults but I can only cope with so much of being patronised.

Danny It is a behemoth in both senses of the word, and the Acquis is designed to accomplish that.

Sorry Brompton, I find it equally as patronising to be told by people that immigration has had significant impact on the wages of the poor, when the impact is extremely slight and only in areas with high levels of immigration.

Furthermore no one ever mentions that these very slight, decreases in wages are unlikely to have been felt by the lowest paid because of the huge increases in the tax threshold from 2010, and even then the lowest paid still got real terms wage increases between 2004 and 2006.

So it seems that the impact of immigration on wages is extremely marginal, utterly negated many times over by the increases in tax threshold, and the years that it might have been felt were 2007 to 2010, when the financial crash would have had a larger impact.

Its patronising in the extreme to take such a negligible impact on wages and use it to justify a brexit vote, or the fact that real incomes fell from 2007. In fact its just wrong, and an example of using immigration as an easy and wrongly suggested target

Up until 1980, 4 out of every 5 workers in the UK had their wage rates governed by a collective agreement.

Sectoral wage levels were mainly set through joint industrial councils, made up of union and employer representatives.

Today, by contrast, less than a quarter of workers have their wages set by a collective agreement, and most of these are in the public sector. And this government is on a mission to break down any remaining collective bargaining of wages (e.g. this is a key feature of the agenda behind academization - shifting pay bargaining from national level terms and conditions to individual schools).

This erosion of collective bargaining has been an economic disaster for UK workers. It has led to a sharp decline in the share of national wealth held by workers and an increase in wealth being hoarded by the wealthy.

This is real story behind precariarty and the decline in wages - not immigration. But it's not a story you will ever hear from brexiteer conservatives.

I'd agree figment, that and the the impact of the 2007/8 economic crash had far larger effects on wages as people accepted lower pay settlements in order to keep their jobs.

But again, its immigration that is at fault, not the far more complex situation.