who will be the Nexit?

[springflowers11]

France? will there even be an Eu in 5 years?

BTW, just a little gleeful stat from me. Obama never managed to reach how unpopular Trump is right now.

Such an awful, BAD, president, wasn't he.

I do know people in there 40s who have privately agreed with their spouses that they will not help family members if/when they get infirm as they disagree with the fact they voted leave even after being begged to vote remain due to the impact on business grandkids etc

Creepy they are actually very nice people who's businesses are already suffering due to brexit

Nice people? Who believe they have the right to dictate how other people vote? I suppose they didn't spell out that they would be withdrawing all familial support if the parent didn't abdicate their democratic choice (perhaps they did) so it's not actual blackmail, but it's not far off.

It's their choice.There is nothing that says children have to assist their families

No, there isn't. But refusing to fulfil basic family responsibilities because your parent doesn't agree to vote the way you tell them to is horrendous.

My point is seething resentments like this won't go away in two years. The deed is done for some

The referendum has caused huge division, resentment, anger and bad feeling. I expect the parent feels pretty angry at being told they have no right to make their own political decision. I think we all need to try to rise above these emotions, particularly when its our parent or child.

No but people who voted against their own interests, should reap the benefits.

That standing on our own two feet thing often mentioned, rather than taking no responsibility for their own actions, and having voted for others to be worse off due to their own prejudices.

It'll all be taken from the value of their houses anyway. First in in house care, second in home care. Pissing it away in a home, an embarrassment to the brats that they spawned to replace themselves.

They didn't tell them how to vote they asked them to conaider the impact on their children and grandchildren. They are amongst those who may have to emigrate.

Instead of being emotional about other people's emotional turmoil sometimes it is better to look at facts. Cause and effect

It is their choice not to help their relatives just as it was their relatives choice to vote the way they did. Cause. Effect

poorboy however you try and word it that's an awful way for people to treat their own family.

And of course it's emotional. Unless there's a bigger back story, who on earth would abandon their family based on voting choice?

No its not. They really are lovely people who have only been back in the UK for a short time and don't want to leave again. It's their choice re their relatives.

The other people have a business hugely impacted. I can completely see why people will refuse to help. In their minds they asked for help regarding their futures in the UK. They were ignored. If I know two like this how many others are there out there

As Danny has said they will have to sell their houses etc and reap what they sow

This issue is that there will potentially be thousands or tens of thousands. Families have been split by this vote

poorboy however you try and word it that's an awful way for people to treat their own family.

I agree.

I bet these people would be upset if in turn their DP cut them out of their wills.

I don't think they would care. By then they could be without a business or abroad.

Not everyone is motivated by inheritance.

I find it amazing that I am constantly being told on MN (and elsewhere) that I voted the wrong way in the referendum, and yet here are some examples of people whose political choices and behaviour I am supposed to think I should have emulated

I don't think so.

Their DP were entitled to their own vote. By saying you didn't vote the way we wanted to we are going to 'punish' you is imo a form of blackmail and I don't understand or agree with it.

I'm not saying they should be emulated. I am saying this is what is happening

Whether you agree with them or understand them is irrelevant. They have made a quiet decision that they are planning to stick to. I will admit to being suprised as they are so very lovely. But it is their choice and not my business

My point is they will not be the only ones. Regardless if it is seen as blackmail etc (it wasn't as they didn't say we won't do x for you they begged them instead). Their life their choice

I haven't and wouldnt change my behaviour towards my parents based on their vote.

But "punishing" someone involves depriving them of something they have a right to. Asking that people accept the consequences of their actions is not "punishing" them. I read an article today about a Trump voter who will lose their home if the wall on the Mexican border gets built; they are not being punished, they will simply (if the wall ever happens) suffer a direct consequence of their own decision. Voting is an act that comes with both responsibilities and consequences.

(In the same way, the UK losing its single market privileges is not a "punishment"; it's a direct and logical consequence of the brexit decision.)

You are saying these are people whose referendum voting we should emulate. People who voted remain are held up by many as the people who made the "right" choice, whose thinking and values lead to them making the correct and responsible choice. If this is an example of this thinking and values, I'll stick with my thinking and values, thanks.

Their life their choice

Well, they didn't really think that about their parents, did they?

And can we apply that little phrase to referendum voting now please, and stop judging people for voting leave, after all -

Whether you agree with them or understand them is irrelevant. They have made a quiet decision that they are planning to stick to

And I too am sure they are not the only ones. I agree many families have suffered splits over the referendum, but this is not an act of God. People do have a choice how they react to other people being autonomous individuals, and we can all choose whether to act to others with bitterness and hatred or with compassion and understanding.

No. I have said I didn't say they should be emulated. You said that and I have refuted it again

What ever you may think of their motivation and choices they have a right to do what they want with regard to family members

For them this issue has meant they feel unable to help their relatives. People make that decision for far less obvious or thought out reasons. I am not judging the leave voters or those who feel so very stronly that they have decided to withdraw their help

I am saying this is what is happening

No. I have said I didn't say they should be emulated. You said that and I have refuted it again

I know you are not saying they should be emulated in their behaviour to their relatives. I am clear on that.

However, they voted remain. This is what we are being told we should have emulated, when leave voters are told we were wrong to vote leave.

Many, many people on MN and elsewhere have, for months, been telling people who voted leave that they should not have done so, that their vote was wrong, irresponsible, reckless, xenophobic, ill informed, selfish etc, etc.

(I am not saying you have said these things, this is a general point).

We take political decisions such as how to vote according to a complex interaction of our beliefs and values and our experiences and situations.

What I am trying to say is that, if this is an example of the beliefs and values of people who voted remain, these are not beliefs and values that I personally find admirable and I have absolutely no wish to emulate behaviour which stems from such beliefs and values.

Many, many people on MN and elsewhere have, for months, been telling people who voted leave that they should not have done so, that their vote was wrong, irresponsible, reckless, xenophobic, ill informed, selfish etc, etc.

So if brexit does turn out to be wrong, irresponsible and reckless, you think we should just shrug and say "sorry you backed the wrong horse, better luck next time".

Voting is an important act which has consequences. If people vote for something that ends up impoverishing them and their country, I'm not going to stand by and say "there there never mind". I'm going to remind people that they voted for this, that voting has consequences and that they are personally responsible for their vote.

I understand your view. I don't think remain voters are morally better or worse. But I guess I afflicted with them. Btw I have an awful lot of friends and family who voted leave. I remain if you pardon the pun on good terms with almost all. The only ones I have issue with are those who have belittled my views but that was more that they are rather dim sexist racist men.

But I think the saddest thing is that it has come to this. Families have been split. I heard a you and yours on radio 4 whete an older leave voter rang in and said he had fallen out with his children. One lived in Germany. When asked if his relationship would improve he didn't seem to hold out much hope...and continued to express that his view was paramount

Perhaps these examples aren't just about leave and remain. Perhaps it's the difference between the outlook of certain sectors and generations. I can almost guarantee that the people I know would vote the way their children wanted. I'm not saying that is right or wrong. But perhaps it is the difference

The 'value' in people's' homes should be used to fund social care costs in any event. It's what's commonly known as a 'no brainer' - although it should be charged to all estates, and hypothecated to social care, rather than only targeting those who end up needing a lot of care. A 'death' tax, if you like. The only reason we haven't seen it yet is because the conservatives command most of the 'home owning' vote - but in true Osborne style, Tories never lose the opportunity presented by a good crisis. Brexit will change everything - including this.

So much is wrong with social care funding. My mum was still being paid her full state pension for a year after being placed on 100% NHS funded continuing care in a nursing home, even though she had zero outgoings - straight into her bank account, accumulating until the day she died.

Someone will be along in a minute, and instead of recognising the wider madness of this policy, they will berate her children for not donating it to the state in some way, or make an inane observation about her having 'earned' it. Actually it depends what you regard as 'earning' it. She 'paid her way' as an unpaid carer, but monetarily speaking (and 'individually' speaking, in the manner of good Tories) she 'took' more out of the system than she put in - by quite a long way.

I think it will run deeper than physical care

I was thinking if my children came to me and said if the vote goes leave there us a high risk we will have to emigrate and take your grandchild with us. Or if the vote goes leave there is a high risk our business will fail and we could lose our home. Morally I would put family before principle. These are real life situations

I would put them first. As I always have. I would vote for them or abstain. This I think is why this has hurt them so very much. And why they may never forgive them. It's not just them it's their young children

Well, Figment, funding social care is a problem for Solomon to solve. Dh's parents, both with dementia have paid in care fees the sum of the sale of their house and all their savings - about £600K. And this is for a basic care home. Someone who managed to off-load their savings earlier or spent money like water or even who never had much - pays nothing. But of course I do see that huge house wealth passed to the following generation is not good either.

Anyway, back to thread title and I think there will be an attempted Italexit . There have been anti-EU protests in Rome, and the population are fed up. 40% under 30 unemployment, and EU countries are not helping Italy with the migrants from Africa by closing their borders.

But where would you draw the line?

Do you think people should vote based on what other people think are the right decisions rather than their own beliefs?

So if brexit does turn out to be wrong, irresponsible and reckless, you think we should just shrug and say "sorry you backed the wrong horse, better luck next time"

We are not in that situation though, are we? Most of the dire predictions which should have happened so far have failed to materialise (I notice there hasn't been much acknowledgement of the non appearance of the immediate economic crash on the triggering in A50 which we heard so much about).

It's back to the argument about whether remain voters have some sort of all seeing ability to predict the future, which leave voters are lacking. They don't. None of us do.

poorboy

Like you, I have no problem with friends and family who chose to vote differently to me and it is only people who belittle or denigrate my views and motives that I have found very difficult to deal with.

I agree with you that the repercussions on many families are awful.

I would never deliberately "punish" an older family member for voting leave if they needed my help in the future.
For many people, however, it might not be so much a case of "won't help" as "can't help".
eg, if someone had to emigrate in order to find work, they won't be able to give as much practical help to their parents in the future.
If someone's business collapses as a result of Brexit, they will not be able to provide the same financial help.

One of the main reasons why I would not like to emigrate is because of how upset my DM would be at missing her granddaughter grow up. However, my DM is also the sort of person who asks "why don't remoaners just leave etc etc?" I have to bite my tongue, but I can understand the resentment others feel when faced with older relatives telling them that their economic hardship will be "worth it", whilst refusing to expect any drop in their own living standards.