Arguing about Brexit on the internet

[WidowWadman]

Jon Worth has written this specifically about Twitter, but I think it applies for this sub forum too. I know that certainly I'm being worn down, surely others feel it too. Look after yourselves.

jonworth.eu/new-less-tolerant-approach-twitter/

Excellent article. Love thos quote:
"Garry Kasparov‏ @Kasparov63
The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth

This applies to so many other arguments on the internet.

The trans threads are wearing in the same way.

."

Good point about those threads.

Completely agree. I'd stayed away for a while and the standard of argument has descended further (and I didn't believe that was possible)

It's all just ridiculous flagging waving in anticipation of A50 being invoked without a thought for the consequences.

That journalist is right, if people can't see the problems now nothing will change that.

It will change when it starts to affect them personally but by then it will be too late and it will be the fault of the EU for not letting us gave our cake and eat it and Remainers for not 'believing'.

It is like watching a car crash in slow motion and not being able to do anything to stop it happening.

But from now on I am not going to be as tolerant as I once was – life’s too short to spend it on lost causes on Twitter.

Or indeed MN.

Might be good to go back to the good old days of allowing people to make up their own minds and respect their opinions.

I'm very happy indeed to tolerate friends who think differently to me; I'm not threatened by it nor do I feel the need to harangue them.

I've never heard of Jon Worth

Not arguing with lost causes is not the same as respecting their opinions.

The problem with the internet is that the posters are so many, and so prolific. One person can't keep up with a single thread (let alone multiple single issue theeads!)on MN for example unless you spend all day on them! Then some posters claim that you've 'run away' or lost and take the opportunity to post all kinds of things about you and your posts.

The normal rules of civilised discussion don't seem to apply on the internet or, indeed in some threads on MN.

Previously I would also spend hours trying to make people understand my point of view, even if they did not agree with it. I’d try to explain how EU institutions work, how the claims of the Leave campaign did not stand up to scrutiny, but ultimately to little avail. I could manage to get a vague frisson of joy out of crushing a ridiculous argument put up by the other side, but then would fall back into anger and incredulity at the ignorance and prejudice that would continue to pour out.
Another quote.
So, so familiar!

Oh, it's another of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

I (remain) argue on the internet

You (leave) propagandize

People don't like admitting they are wrong, less so fooled.

When Brexiters push back against the consequences of leaving the EU I am always reminded of comical Ali. Nothing to see here, everything will be brilliant.

I do genuinely miss the days of tolerance.

And the manners that meant I neither knew nor cared about anyone's political, religious or sexual practices.

I think selective tolerance is hypocritical and instantly makes me wonder where that God complex comes from.

I'm also highly amused by the modern telepathy that enables so many people to see into my mind and insist on telling me the reasons I believe/act in certain ways.

Preaching on Twitter/MN and being peeved that people aren't immediately agreeing with your dictats?

It's a hard old life for current-day Messiahs.

People don't like admitting they are wrong, less so fooled.

I find this bizarre: it's only by getting things wrong that you learn.

I've been wrong/surprised about lots of stuff about brexit (mostly in the sense that I underestimated the potential for harm).

I am guilty of getting sucked into arguments on the internet. However, the majority of the time the most vehement posters on both sides are never going to change their views.

There is a case for getting different sources of information into the public domain though. A lot of people only get their information from very narrow sources.

That's why I think a "block poster" function on MN would raise the standard of discourse. The trolls and goady fuckers would get rapidly hidden by most posters so you could actually get on with discussing stuff with sane people who have a genuine urge to understand other viewpoints/explain their own.

Used to work on Usenet...

It's not trolls or goaders that are the problem in this situation though. The issue is those who support Leave but outright refuse to address any of the issues that will come with it simply because they refuse to acknowledge they exist.

There's no point in just duscussing things with people who agree with you and likewise it's pointless discussing things with people who refuse to see what's staring them in the face.

There is a case for getting different sources of information into the public domain though. A lot of people only get their information from very narrow sources.

Fair enough, Grace, but how would you get people to read different sources of information?

Well, you can't make them read it, but various links are posted on different threads. All need to be read with a critical eye of course, which can be hard if you have very firmly views.

The joy - and the horror - of arguing on Mumsnet is of course, the anonymity.

This has an incredible democratizing effect - so that you have to listen to everyone without preconception. The view of say, a professor of Law with thirty years experience might be next to the view of a 20 year old hairdresser and nobody knows who is who.

Very quickly however, on here, you pick up that same people's "arguments" however convinced they seem, just don't make any sense.

The very vocal ones who are going on like "we can easily trade without EU" are very unlikely to have achieved even a C in GCSE Economics but who cares? who knows? The ones who are going on about "the will of the people" sound like they have never watched or listened to a documentary or read a broadsheet in their entire lives. But this is their moment in the sunshine - let them enjoy it before the storm.

Blimey, doesn't disdain for the working class (all though I'm sure you'd never use that phrase) just ooze out if your post tinyhands. Lovely.

And fwiw (but I think it's probably fairly pointless making the point, as I think the real issue here is that many people are now at the stage where they are seeing things through such a thick and impenetrable filter that no different perspectives have any chance of getting through) some of the cleverest and wisest people I know have almost no academic qualifications. Conversely I know some people with degrees who have almost no idea what is going on around them.

But heyho, let's just carry on pretending that the correlation between wisdom and formal education is total. It's so much simpler that way. Then we don't have to consider complicated issues like whether someone's social and economic situation might have a legitimate effect on their world view and consequently voting choices, which is terribly tedious when we can just simplify by saying they are stupid and uneducated and have done with it.

Um, I am working class as are my family and friends...my lovely niece is a 20 year old hairdresser so I'm not sure of your point?

My DH left school at 16 with no qualifications (and still has none) I'm really not sure of your point.

wrong we've argued over this many times but the fact still remains; the problem isn't people failing to look at different perspectives, it is Leavers absolute refusal to discuss the consequences of actually leaving thus a discussion about their views being impossible.

It's still just unicorns and rainbows.

If I'm ill I trust the medical advice of my GP. If I need legal advice I instruct a solicitor.

If economists say Brexit will be bad for the economy and politicians with vast experience working with the EU say negative things about leaving I'm going to take their world over that of Dave from Sunderland.

Of course there are margins of error but I'd still put wisdom and experience over wishful thinking.

the real issue here is that many people are now at the stage where they are seeing things through such a thick and impenetrable filter that no different perspectives have any chance of getting through

Well, that's true. You seem to have read my post and bizarrely decided that I said anyone who hasn't had a formal education is stupid. Why not try and read it again without that thick and impenetrable filter of yours?

tinyfingers Apologies if I have misunderstood.

The very vocal ones who are going on like "we can easily trade without EU" are very unlikely to have achieved even a C in GCSE Economics but who cares? who knows? The ones who are going on about "the will of the people" sound like they have never watched or listened to a documentary or read a broadsheet in their entire lives. But this is their moment in the sunshine - let them enjoy it before the storm

This reads to me as if you are saying that the views of less educated people are less valid/of interest/meaningful. You mention whether people have ever read a broadsheet as if this is a measure of the credibility of their views. Your "moment in the sunshine" comment sounds to me like a patronising dismissal of a section of leave voters as having no real understanding of what they have done. If I have misunderstood, I am sorry but please can you explain what you did mean?