Arguing about Brexit on the internet

[WidowWadman]

Jon Worth has written this specifically about Twitter, but I think it applies for this sub forum too. I know that certainly I'm being worn down, surely others feel it too. Look after yourselves.

jonworth.eu/new-less-tolerant-approach-twitter/

WidowWadman Look after yourselves. Thank you! You too.

What is precious about this space is it as a media source, and analytical tool for detailed political, economic, legal and constitutional aspects of this which are simply not being addressed in ms media.

And a mainly female media space is one I value so much.

Oh the irony of this thread

This is part of the leavers script

The Mumsnet leavers can't actually debate the rationale or terms of Brexit, because, um, well, it's a bit complicated isn't it, when you try to express anything get beyond 'get control back' or what to do about Ireland, but they do feel on much more comfortable ground pretending that all remainers are elitist, middle class with a 'disdain' for the working class.

Anyone still arguing for Brexit now, MUST know that they are throwing working class people of this country under a bus (Farage's bus of lies maybe) but still - if they should loud enough about the disdain for the working class among remainers, then maybe people won't notice their culpability.

We won't forget though.

It's interesting that when I said about not having a GCSE in Economics, not watching a documentary or reading a broadsheet that your mind went - "oooh this is an attack on the working class!" Like working class people never did any of those things! Nice.

And yes, I am clearly exceptional in this way: if someone is clamoring for the EU to go by world trade rules, I am more interested if that person has 30 years professional experience of, say, international law, and yes, I do give more credibility to their arguments than my hairdressing niece. This must be shamefully undemocratic of me.
Mind you, I know who I would prefer to give me a blow-dry.

tinyfingers I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to work my way through your convoluted train of thought except to point out that I was replying to your post, and you have been replying to mine . The fact that you have turned what I said into a point about "Leavers" and "anyone still arguing for Brexit" is a real case in point on why discussion is so difficult and often essentially pointless.

As I said, I may have misunderstood your point. I apologised if this was the case. I asked you to explain further. Do you do so? No, you just attempt to twist what I have said to have a go, and then use what I have said to make a generalised point about how you think Leavers view Remainers. Oh well.

*That's why I think a "block poster" function on MN would raise the standard of discourse. The trolls and goady fuckers would get rapidly hidden by most posters so you could actually get on with discussing stuff with sane people who have a genuine urge to understand other viewpoints/explain their own.

Used to work on Usenet...*

One person's goady-fucker is another person's voice of reason though.
If you can block posters whose views dont align with yours then you create yet another echo chamber.

There's no point in just duscussing things with people who agree with you and likewise it's pointless discussing things with people who refuse to see what's staring them in the face.

Yet another time I have agreed with Bear
I often actively seek out other viewpoints even if I disagree with them - i often change my mind, too.
(Not wrt Brexit though Bear, don't worry )

Riiight.

So you get to say: doesn't disdain for the working class (all though I'm sure you'd never use that phrase) just ooze out if your post tinyhands. Lovely without any grounds at all and yet I'm the one making discussion difficult and pointless?
Really? WTAF?

And you get to say - out of nowhere - that pretending that the correlation between wisdom and formal education is total and that's my convoluted train of thought?? Ummm

You asked me to explain further. I did. Let me try once again: Whose opinions do I trust more? Someone who has an excellent understanding of economics and politics or someone who doesn't? Hmm, let me see...Oh I know the answer: someone who does.

As for 'Let them enjoy their moment in the sunshine' - um, yes, many leavers ARE celebrating now. For some, wealthy ones, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Okay, you are obviously struggling with "I may have misunderstood" and "Apologies". Difficult concepts, clearly. Do carry on ....

I feel like I've wandered into an echo chamber...

I came back to mumsnet from Twitter precisely because it isn't an echo chamber. I was hoping to hear some good arguments from Leavers that would give some reassurance of at least the possibility of a good outcome from Brexit, but it seems we're not there yet. The lights are certainly on but I've yet to see evidence that anyone is home.

Well, sometimes it's a bunfight Kaija.

"One person's goady-fucker is another person's voice of reason though."

Sometimes, yes, but equally there are always some who aren't really interested in discussion, just in stirring up some dissent and feeding off the attention. Unfortunately contentious threads tend to attract them like flies to shit.

"If you can block posters whose views dont align with yours then you create yet another echo chamber."

This is one disadvantage of Usenet style killfiles/block filters. OTOH, it also gives you breathing space to actually read and pay attention to the arguments of someone who is arguing in good faith, because they are no longer hidden in the sea of GFs, trolls, and on Twitter, bots. I see abso-fecking-lutely no point in spending even a millisecond of attention on a bot. I don't think bots have reached MN (yet) but... posters who don't read the thread, just vomit their standard rant - I don't wanna even have to scroll past them whatever their viewpoint is. (And I suspect there are a few paid astroturfers floating around).

At the moment the only way to have sane discussions with people of differing views on here seems to be on page 34 of a thread with a non-Brexit related title, IYSWIM?

Actually, you weren't answering Tinyhands' post at all, Wrongtrousers: she said nothing about working classes.

I think you are the one twisting words and making assumptions.

Still, it neatly diverts attention from the points she raised, doesn't it?

One person's goady-fucker is another person's voice of reason though.

saying things like "taking back control" or "I'm sure it'll be fine" isn't reason or even comment of any intellectual note. What Brexit will require is intelligent, considered date - none of which we have from leavers here which is why remainers get so pissed off. Or perhaps that is what leavers want. Voice of reason? no, goady? certainly

I think you are the one twisting words and making assumptions

I'll say it once more. tinyfingers posted. I took her post to mean something. tiny replied saying this was not the case. I said I had perhaps misunderstood, said I apologies if this was the case and asked for clarification of certain points.

I'm going to leave it there, as I have now said this three times. A clearer demonstration of the perils of "arguing about Brexit on the internet" could not be asked for.

Do feel free to continue lambasting me on this thread for my comments which I have explained three times were due to misunderstanding tiny's post.

You see I have no issue with having (strong) discussions with some Leave or Remain voters.
My POV is that, I won't be able to convince them they are wrong, but for one person posting there are so many others just lurking around on MN that it is worth doing. Esp when I read stuff that just don't make sense. I think it's important to put another POV across.

The issue I have is with bots. And there are some on MN too.
How do you address them? They are invading everything, the propaganda effect is massive but why should I be giving any importance at all??

One person's goady-fucker is another person's voice of reason though.
Yes and that's OK as long as the person in front is happy to hear some string argument back and will not revert to name calling, putting down or being obtuse just to be sure that they will 'win' the argument.

What Brexit will require is intelligent, considered date - none of which we have from leavers here

Sigh.
White noise.

I am very vocal about believing we will be able to trade outside the EU and it will be a better for us and I have a First Class Business and Finance Degree ((BA Hons), four A levels Inc grade A Economics sorry I don't fit your rhetoric and Bear I have answered you many times you just dont listen.

Is that you David Davis?

Ye-es, I'm sure it's all going to be brilliant.

infinite please can you reference where you have ever even attempted to answer my questions about the consequences of Brexit.

You haven't.

I fully expect you to come back and tell me to find it for my self which rather proves my point.

I am quite sure that we will be able to trade outside the EU because loads of countries do so. Whether it will be on favourable terms is a good question.

11/3/17 previous Brexit Arms thread I gave you my reasons you disputed them which is your right that was my last attempt to answer you but as always you don't want to listen. You replied to my points and Semi I th I k replied to your reply you need to accept that my reasons are not good enough for you and that I can't help you but also you should acknowledge that I, like many other Leavers have tried. Your grief, fear and distress is palpable seek help.

infinite, I'm not talking about your reasons for leaving, I'm asking for your opinion on how some of the consequences of leaving will be resolved.

I know it's completely pointless as none of you seem to give a hoot about them as long as we get to say we've left.

Might be good to go back to the good old days of allowing people to make up their own minds and respect their opinion

Meh. People have always made up their own minds and we've never had to respect peoples opinions when they are stupid ones.
Its' just that people are more vocal about their stupid opinions now.

Well where to start with that. I know, not bother - so much more constructive in these difficult and quickly changing times if we all just don't converse with people we disagree with but just throw insults eh Spartacus?