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Brexit

Westministenders: Brexit Britain = Gridlock Britain ?

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2017 16:03

We keep getting told the Uk can get a deal like Canada, Turkey or other non-EU countries have, without FOM.
Those deals do not provide the same privileges as EU members:
They have quotas, restrictions and must obey EU regulations

e.g. After CETA, Ron Davidson, head of international trade for the Canadian Meat Council stated:
"We do not have what we would call commercially viable access to the European market".

The deal with Turkey abolished tariffs, but did not give free acess. This is what that means:

www.ft.com/content/b4458652-f42d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

"On a recent Saturday at the Kapikule border crossing, about 30 minutes drive from the Turkish city of Edirne, a line of trucks 4km long stretched along the highway, inching along glacially towards the Bulgarian checkpoints.
"Today is a good day", said Ibrahim Kurtukcu, a 42-year trucker who had been waiting 14 hours.
"Last week the line was 7km long".
The record is 17km. It can take up to 30 hours to get through to the other side."

Of course, UK ports (and French ports) do not have the capacity, facilities, storage space or trained staff to handle customs processing of the vast amount of British exports & imports.

Building this additional capacity - where ? - would take several years and there are no signs that even the planning stage has started.

OP posts:
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HashiAsLarry · 14/03/2017 23:02

Tough choice for Farage. Going for MP and securing it means giving up his burgeoning TV career. Not going possibly means denting his burgeoning TV career. not that I care the twat

Absolutely swedish. Not being Scottish enough to really count, in the first indyref I felt it was fine they should have it but didn't like the way AS campaigned and hoped they'd stay with us. This time I feel different. I feel we've fundamentally pulled the rug out from under them and they deserve a revote, and I couldn't blame them if they wanted to go. I could never put my finger on why I felt the Lib Dems had the right idea with a referendum on the final deal, but I think this nails it. What if the final deal shows we've been sold a kipper rather than a ukipper?

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 04:01

Mistigri Tue 14-Mar-17 18:23:05
Referring to "I've worked for companies in UK who's international operations make money largely solely from 'repatriation of profits'. Looks like ROI have expanded that to countrywide."
[Mistigri] There is real, productive investment in ROI too, eg huge state of the art medical device factories (plonked bizarrely in the middle of nowhere - I once arranged to meet colleagues at one, and thought I'd get there by public transport - that was fun lol)

I feel I need to apologise for experiences like that, Misti Blush
There is method to the madness when it comes to factory location, however. Ireland invested in a network of Regional Technical Colleges back in the 60s, with the aim of providing uniform training and certification for modern industrial careers - lots of lab science, quality control, IT, logistics, engineering areas.

They have grown and developed (and changed name to Institutes of Technology) and can now grant degrees alongside their certificate programmes. One of the key elements to the Institutes was that they were located in large towns away from Dublin, serving mainly rural students at first. The aim was decentralisation of education and job opportunities. They now attract students from all over Ireland and there are a few in Dublin. The Institutes have from the start attracted industry to their localities. Hence factories in the middle of nowhere, occasionally.

Ireland is the largest net exporter of pharmaceuticals in the EU. Pharmaceuticals account for 50% of Irish exports.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 04:25

Peregrina:
But this doesn't square with her words about the 'Just Managing', not that she has actually done anything for them.

I don't think the 'Just Managing' comment should be read as a hint of any context Britain has ever experienced before. I don't think she has in mind the 'thousand points of light' or the 'kinder, gentler Republicanism' that George H.W. Bush charmed the US with many years ago. I suspect she has in mind something more like corporatism than welfare.

Certainly I believe she intends to usher in a new era of robber barons openly displaying their power just as they now do in the US. They have always been there, but they are the unacceptable face of capitalism and have hidden. I suspect that TM's vision is a fascist Britain.

An open letter from Henry Wallace, Vice President under FDR, published in the New York Times, April 9, 1944.
The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.

If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. Most American fascists are enthusiastically supporting the war effort. They are doing this even in those cases where they hope to have profitable connections with German chemical firms after the war ends. They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead.

American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery...

...Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion.

The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice...

...The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. They cultivate hate and distrust of both Britain and Russia. They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection...

...Fascism in the postwar inevitably will push steadily for Anglo-Saxon imperialism and eventually for war with Russia. Already American fascists are talking and writing about this conflict and using it as an excuse for their internal hatreds and intolerances toward certain races, creeds and classes....

Well, well, well...

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 04:33

And add to her vision this, from LH:
Theresa May's to-do list looks like this:
#1) Ensure the Tory party remains intact for the 2020 elections.
#2) er ... that's it.

I don't think the fascism thing and this to-do list contradict each other at all.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 04:35

And Scotland is not being taken out of EU against its will. The referendum was nationwide, one person one vote. There were not separate representations by SEnIW.

Daft comment, Bored.

You have forgotten devolution, and also I suspect the NI assembly.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 04:57

A few comments from the JackofKent blog linked upthread:

Nick Tolhurst says:
14th March 2017 at 11:16
There’s an interesting connection between devolution politics & EU deal making. The-winner-takes-all Westminster system is mostly unused to multi-lateral processes which explains both its disdain for EU as well as its blindness to the Scottish/NI risk. In EU power is multifaceted & depends on facilitating “your favored plausible option” via “consensus building” rather than simply amassing power & grandstanding. May’s inability to recognize, prepare & neutralize the obvious Scottish “independence gambit” does not augur well for UK Government’s ability to facilitate a deal which is both favorable to UK and, more crucially, obtains enough support from different power centers to be successfully passed.

In other words May looks like she is playing a “Westminster strategy” that simply doesn’t apply to negotiations with both devolved nations and the EU – if she continues, UK is likely to come out worse with respect to both.

Antony Carter says:
14th March 2017 at 11:16
Sinn Féin have ever played the long game. The ‘retirement’ of Martin McGuinness due to ill health was, I suspect, delayed to maximise its influence on NI politics. The refusal by Sinn Féin to appoint a successor to the post of Deputy First Minister thus triggering the elections, is an object lesson in timing in politics as born out by the results. The move, when it comes will be timed to cause maximum devastation to Westminster’s plans.

Noemi Fabry says:
14th March 2017 at 11:53
Anyone who has exchanged more than a sentence with people living in Scotland and Northern Ireland could see this coming. Given Ms May’s diplomatic skills combined with her unique superiority complex, I must admit that I am increasingly looking forward to seeing her having to face the reality of European politics.

She and her rogue public school bullies on the Tory right wing have most likely achieved something few thought remotely possible: the political unification of Europe.

Europeans are really fed up with this British side show and Sturgeon and Adams have decided to side with the stronger partners in this battle.

John Forbes says:
14th March 2017 at 12:52
And it seems the Welsh, despite the majority supporting Brexit, are also queuing up and looking at their options if a hard Brexit seems inevitable. The unravelling of the United Kingdom is at hand as a result of a paltry majority achieved by downright lies and obfuscation. And the best May can say to Sturgeon is don’t play games with politics! The irony is profound.

The real games have not yet even begun to be played. At the best, the end of the beginning is at hand with the final wilting of the British Parliament to May’s cabal while yearning after a long past imperial dream.

Steve Jones says:
14th March 2017 at 14:58
I suspect the common reaction in England and Wales to the reunification of Ireland is that it can’t happen fast enough. It would be a significant saving to the Treasury, remove a security headache and somebody else will have to deal with the intransigent, divisive politics and religious bigotry. Of course, the Ulster Unionists will be livid and not doubt bang their drums and parade, but they don’t really have many friends in England and Wales save a few traditionalists in the Conservative and Unionist party. There are some commentators in the Republican of Ireland who are somewhat less keen as, whatever the romantic and nationalistic elements, they realise they will be inheriting a province with a long history of trouble and, perhaps more important, a financial liability.

GDP per capita in the Republic of Ireland is $61.3k and that of Northern Ireland is $23.7k on a PPP basis (the UK as a whole is about $38.9k). The NI economy is also disproportionately public sector at over 30% compared with less than 20% in the UK as a whole.

I suppose, put another way, the Republic of Ireland is more able to afford Northern Ireland albeit that the former is very much a low taxation, low state spend economy so it might be a tricky merger.

.....
My own comment:
The major plus for Ireland and NI in the event of reunification would be the rationalisation of EU regional funding, especially for the (former) border region which is a poor, rural one, and the increased possibility for all-island economic and infrastructure planning. And who knows, perhaps a Scottish/Irish regional development fund?

mathanxiety · 15/03/2017 05:43

RTB
May's track record has consistently been act without consulting lawyers, then get stiffed later in court at the expensive of the taxpayer. Its not exactly a pattern of action which would depart from this is it? More a symptom of her style of management where she acts as a dictator and does not tolerate dissenting voices.

Yes indeed, and also perhaps an indication of a scathing disrespect for the law, which may be reflected in the execrable disrespect shown to the law during the legal challenges. It takes a very unusual sort of political mind to go ahead and draft a bill apparently without regard to its legality. Someone who is all 'will of the people' and who remains silent while the legal system and its officers are derided is someone who wants to push a questionable agenda. We have already seen her antipathy for the ECJ and ECHR and her extra legal deportation of students. I believe Theresa May could be a revolutionary of the Right.

woman12345 · 15/03/2017 07:27

You have to wonder if the flimsy regard for parliamentary legalities on wording and the student numbers amendment is cock up or deliberate flouting of constitutional procedure, RTB.

Yep, math May's got a peculiarly English take on Bannonism. Admitting seeing fascism at work is like admitting seeing any abuse, you see it, don't call it out, you're part of the problem, that's a lot of MPs right now doing that, sadly. Her calling card for leadership with many tories was slapping down the police federation. Trump's not very keen on the law either, is he? Rule of law and free press are the first casualties, usually.

Great letter from Wallace. Oh for an FDR and an Eleanor right now. Sad

Mistigri · 15/03/2017 07:41

There is method to the madness when it comes to factory location, however. Ireland invested in a network of Regional Technical Colleges back in the 60s, with the aim of providing uniform training and certification for modern industrial careers - lots of lab science, quality control, IT, logistics, engineering areas.

No need to apologise - I'm a great believer in decentralisation. People working at the big Irish medical device factories have an excellent quality of life - clean air, reasonable housing, pleasant surroundings. Only downside of living somewhere like this is the lack of public transport. That might have improved - my last work trip to Ireland was a few years ago now.

Cailleach1 · 15/03/2017 08:20

Really good food for thought. Interesting analysis on what is happening right now.

I wonder how it can be counteracted?

SemiPermanent · 15/03/2017 08:24

This is an interesting route for an independent Scotland, should the final Brexit deal not be what NS wants for Scotland.
(Certainly makes more sense than trying to join EU):

www.commonspace.scot/articles/8856/icelandic-legal-expert-says-scotland-should-join-nordics-instead-eu

Motheroffourdragons · 15/03/2017 08:37

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2017 08:47

Unlike England, there is a substantial majority of Scots who want to be part of the EU, a market of 450 million (without the Uk)
So, no real demand for alternative routes for an independent Scotland - unless EU membership is (temporarily) blocked.

In Germany, I find a lot of goodwill and sympathy towards Scotland and also to individual UK citizens.
So they would be flexible and helpful about creative routes to help.

I think Scotland could have an easier route into the EU as part of a very loose "Celtic Federation of Ireland and Scotland" which might also help bring about a United Ireland.
NS is networking brilliantly with both RoI and Brussels.

I totally agree with pp that a United Ireland could maximise and leverage EU funds for the poorer regions, most of NI

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2017 08:52

On the subject of networking & negotiating, NS is the politician who would be best suited to negotiate a good Brexit !

It shows up May's weakness: she works by bullying, being stubborn, not listening to views that differ to her own
That may work for a superpower like the US, but not for a medium rank country trying to dig itself out of a deep dark hole it jumped into.

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GreenPeppers · 15/03/2017 09:06

Another way to look at it is that TM is still stuck at a time when Britain was great with Empire 1.0 and everyone was listening to it.
So bullying, imposing your pov by force, 'amazing power and groundstanding' is still the preferred option.

A Britain that is red, blue and white fits very well with that sort of attitude.

prettybird · 15/03/2017 09:20

But don't you realise, BigChoc, we are still a World. Power??? The Empire still exists in our minds

We're best buddies with Donald Trump.

We just need to dictate our terms Slowly. And. Loudly. Enough. Grin

And of course, because we are so superior and important, those lesser nations and the nasty EU will roll over and give us everything we want.

woman12345 · 15/03/2017 09:29

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/15/eurosceptic-views-in-scotland-pose-dilemma-for-nicola-sturgeon

Or Protestant tory/ tartan tory Scotland weaponises anti EU sentiment to vote down independence referendum. They are going into overdrive today in media and with their petition.

Like Catholic NI, I think young and Catholic Scotland is for the EU, just a hunch, and therefore independence too atm. The 16 year old voting age will play well for NS.

lalalonglegs · 15/03/2017 09:35

Funnily enough, I saw a MN thread linking to the anti-referendum petition a few minutes ago and loads of anti-ref sentiment on other threads about Indyref2. There could potentially be two more years of this with EU negotiations running concurrently - I predict all-out war at this rate Sad.

woman12345 · 15/03/2017 09:41

A road sign discovered in a Jewish-dominated part of North London that appeared to warn passers-by to “beware of Jews” has been removed
.
Thanks Teresa.
Citizens of Nowhere?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/beware-of-jews-sign-stamford-bridge-synagogue-london-anti-semitism-a7630491.html

It's the tartan tories and whoever else they can find on 4chan to do overtime, lala. They are in overdrive today.
But like math said SF are playing a much bigger quieter and more successful game over the sea.

HashiAsLarry · 15/03/2017 09:44

David Davis is up in front of Brexit committee right now. Here's a short part:

Jo Maugham QC‏ @JolyonMaugham 15m15 minutes ago
Hilary Benn: UK citizens would no longer have access to the European EHIC health treatment card?
DD: That's probably right, I haven't looked at that.

HashiAsLarry · 15/03/2017 09:45

woman that'll be those remainers making them feel unsafe. Not the racists at all Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 15/03/2017 09:46

We're 8 months in. 8 fucking months in and those idiots in charge of the process haven't even looked at EHIC. Angry

woman12345 · 15/03/2017 09:51

hashi the anti semitism and racism right now is fucking terrifying.
EHIC card Shock Davis, what a fucking dick.

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2017 09:52

May says no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK.

And then this today:

David Davis: "We could not quantify" the impact of leaving the EU without a Brexit deal

Okay then... How did May manage to do it then?!

TheElementsSong · 15/03/2017 09:54

anti semitism and racism right now is fucking terrifying.

Don't worry everyone, these incidents are simultaneously made up hysterical over-reporting and caused by Remainers using their mindwaves to instil racist thoughts and actions in the minds of others.

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