Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

I'm off to find another forum..

It is tedious being called a racist..or an imperial dickswinger as was posted on another thread. I appreciate it is probably a great fun way to deride people with opinions that are not identical to your own, but I think it is foul if I'm honest.

badders sadly, I fear that you are wrong that UK citizens in the EU have nothing to fear.

A minority will fall foul of whatever immigration agreement is made: if the UK plays hardball and restricts ILR to those with cast iron evidence that they have been exercising treaty rights, so will at least some of the EU27. But many other UK migrants will simply be impoverished to the point where they have no choice but to return to the UK.

The big issues here are not immigration law, but reciprocal healthcare, and automatic pensions uprating. The first is not an issue that the UK can decide unilaterally, although the second most certainly is - May could announce tomorrow that she will continue to uprate pensions paid in the EU, but she won't.

The healthcare issue seems, practically, an enormous hurdle to overcome. Under what mechanism will those pensioners in Spain and France be cared for? Who will pay, and how much? It's not really an "EU issue" as such, because it's really only Spain and France that are concerned (it mainly affects retirees).

I want security for everyone.... not all expats agree with you bigchoc sorry.

I want security for everyone
And yet somehow you seem to have no issue with TM threatening no security to EU citizens already here. Which is completely the wrong way to go about getting security for everyone.

It should have been unilaterally agreed

May asked for an early agreement. It would have been in everybody's interests not just one half of the equation.

The reason the EU negotiators are not keen on separate deals atm is because, like a Union, its negotiating strength comes from acting together:

Poland is in a very weak position and needs support from its EU partners because it has the largest number of expats in the UK and hardly any UK expats in Poland.
May might like to separate Poland from the rest, so she can expel a few hundred thousand and bring down the headline figure.

In contrast, Spain & the Uk could easily agree terms, because Uk pensioners are mostly beneficial to the Spanish economy and there are far fewer Spanish expats than Polish ones in the Uk

No negotiation until article 50 is triggered.
Its a very simple concept.

I agree with you on this Misti. I also think obsessing about the rights of EU Nationals in one place or another at some arbitrary point in time carries a high risk of cliff edges, perverse incentives and harsh judgements. Hopefully a more nuanced approach can be reached through negotiation either bilaterally or via the EU.

Big choc, polish immigrants to the UK are beneficial to the uk economy...

All that was needed was an agreement between members and the uk. There is nothing to stop the e27 coming up with a common position on that agreement.

our actual existence doesn't matter. Its a fact after all, and not feelings based enough exactly, because Brexit exists in a abstract dimension where human lives don't actually count and countries are not actually made up of the people who live there, but are defined by "an idea" of how things should be or used to be. I was born in a EU country, came here to study, married a British man and settled here, my children are British Europeans and proud of it, and hold two passports. We are proud to live in London as it's clear fact that this great city is made by the people who live in it, not by an abstract idea.

In contrast, Spain & the Uk could easily agree terms, because Uk pensioners are mostly beneficial to the Spanish economy and there are far fewer Spanish expats in the UK

I agree with your Polish point. I think the Spanish situation is more nuanced. Spain could easily get brownie points by making an immigration agreement under which pensioners could stay, but without a complex and expensive agreement over reciprocal healthcare rights then it's not worth the paper it's written on.

And as I said above, the UK will need to guarantee pensions uprating, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU and is an issue that could be settled immediately if it were May's intention to do so (I am confident that she won't).

Guaranteeing the rights of EU migrants within the U.K. is the ethically right thing to do, irrespective of how the rEU countries treat UK migrants.

People have made their homes and lives here in good faith, they are our friends and part of our communities. We have chosen to pull the rug out from under people's feet, we should face up to the consequences of that.

I am ashamed that this country has a Government that treats people as bargaining chips and ashamed that the voters here are happy to vote for such a Government.

Uk pensioners are mostly beneficial to the Spanish economy it's interesting how Brexiters keep repeating this, with no mention about how Spanish doctors, nurses, teachers and many others, are beneficial to the UK economy. Apparently pensioners are more of a boost to local Spanish economies, right?

Bigchoc this is quite an interesting take on post Brexit UK / Poland relations. The 2 countries tended to have a similar approach to reform of the EU. Also Poland do not wish to encourage further migration from their country. This gives quite a lot of scope for bilateral agreement.

voxeu.org/article/poland-uk-relations-after-brexit

exactly, because Brexit exists in a abstract dimension where human lives don't actually count and countries are not actually made up of the people who live there, but are defined by "an idea" of how things should be or used to be.
I forgot how much more everything makes sense when you view it as an abstract concept. Its the only thing that makes people being happy for our own government to use people as a resource to bargain with remotely understandable. People don't matter because matter doesn't matter. Thanks jaws

As for the intention to expel expats, only the Uk is sending out "prepare to leave" letters to E27 expats - UK expats in 27 countries are not getting these letters when they enquire about permanent residence.
UK expats have to fill in forms of course , but not 85 pages asking for bills from 20 years ago.

No E27 govt has stated its intention to reduce UK immigration.
In fact EU Parliamentarians are trying to organise EU citizenship for all UK citizens, not even just expats
Reducing EU immigration was a big factor in the referendum vote
May is clearly trying to cut E27 numbers, because she has never managed to reduce the non-EU

There seems to be a govt attitude, which many - not all Brexiters have copied - that all negotiations have to be conducted as if the E27 are enemies.
In the case of expats, all parties claim they want each others longterm expats to be able to stay. So starting with a conciliatory attitude seems sensible
This is not like trade negotiations where there are fundamental differences.

The biggest worries for UK expats are nothing to do with the EU side:

• Will the UK govt continue to refund healthcare for those pensioners receiving a UK pension
• Can they manage with the reduced purchasing powef of a UK pension paid in devalued Sterling

jaws bigchoc is emphatically not a brexiter, but she's (partly) wrong about this.

Spain would undoubtedly like to keep the richer pensioners, but even relatively wealthy pensioners mostly can't afford full private health insurance potentially running into tens of thousands a year. So immigration law is something of a red herring here.

In practice what may happen is that pensioners continue to live in Spain and support local economies, but return to the UK for all but routine healthcare. Many pensioners living in the EU do this already; my tenant, who has just been diagnosed with a serious illness that will involve significant periods of hospitalisation, has just returned to the UK for treatment because of the language barrier.

ElenaGreco123 thanks, red tape from her speech seems to be environmental protection. Soil has a limited life, did some one post that at this rate the number of crops left in some soil is in the 100s?

I think a lot of people are very confused about the intentions of tm government. I do not see her gaining significant support to treat immigrants badly and I do not even think it is her intention to do so.

Jaws of course we need Spanish doctors and techers etc... most people know we need them and do not want that to change.

LadyOhDearOhDear
Another irony is that Greece's problems are in part due to non collection of tax, Russian money laundering. Now they are at risk of extreme right Golden Dawn.
Another irony is that Britain's problems are in part due to non collection of tax, Russian money laundering, election fraud, and basement trolls. Now they are at risk of extreme right Banks' Golden Dawn.

Howabout Poland, like any other country, doesn't want to see its citizens forced out, after they have lived longterm in the Uk.
Quite different to not wanting further emigration of its citizens

The UK govt is perfectly entitled to stop further E27 immigration; the question is what to do about E27 citizens who've made their lives here for decades, maybe with a UK spouse and UK DC.
It's about not splitting up families who are currently living on the UK

When the papers in E27 countries highlight how the Home Office are frightening E27 citizens, or how their citizens are subject to verbal abuse and worse, the popular mood is very much against rewardng the UK govt with cake.
So much for the Tory rightwing belief that the scared E27 expats will pressure their govts for a good trade deal

UK citizens haven't been hassled afaik, but the UK govt is regarded with derision and / or disgust

The biggest worries for UK expats are nothing to do with the EU side:
+ Will the UK govt continue to refund healthcare for those pensioners receiving a UK pension
+ Can they manage with the reduced purchasing powef of a UK pension paid in devalued Sterling

Biggest worry for pensioners - not all UK migrants.

There are other concerns for working age migrants, especially for those who are not working or are on low incomes.

For eg, in France, provision of family benefits to non-nationals usually requires you to prove your immigration status via a resident's card or other immigration document. The French family benefits office has started asking British families for evidence of their immigration status. At present, a UK passport is sufficient; in 2019, this will no longer be the case.

So there is a genuine question about the future status of working-age UK migrants, especially those without a 5 year period of exercising treaty rights, or those with incomes below the level required to apply for PR as a non-EU national. What immigration status will be granted to them? Will they have to demonstrate that they will not be a burden on public funds? I don't expect many deportations (unless Le Pen gets in, God forbid) - but I do expect some people to return to the UK as their income falls and their debts mount.

Yes we all hope that xenophobes and lunatics would just stay out of it because it does this country no favours at all. I think that it is very likely that the press in the eu will be making this sort of behaviour out to be commonplace. I am sure that there have been instances of it both in Europe and in the uk.

It does not help that people even in this country are unable to listen to the views of people who voted leave, but are happy to deride them all as racists, much like misty did earlier.

That will not help at all.

I do not see her gaining significant support to treat immigrants badly and I do not even think it is her intention to do so.
Prior to last Autumn's Tory conference, I might have been able to agree with you. Since then, no - I think she has no intention of treating immigrants well.