Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

Yers Just for clarity, you were not called an imperial dick swinger. The post war British government used the Marshall Aid that could have gone towards building the UKs infrastructure as part of a plan to make it into a modern industrial state as the Germans did. Instead they spent the money on trying to maintain control over it's colonies in Africa and elsewhere so it could continue to exploit their markets and control their agricultural output in order to support an ailing economy (and by a Labour government at that). I call that Imperial dick swinging. Now we have a Conservative government evoking the emotions in an older generation who grew up with maps coloured pink, talking about a red, white and blue Brexit and of increasing trade with the Commonwealth to compensate for any damage to trade with our neighbours but doing nothing to address the need for large scale investment in a plan to make the UK into a 21st century economy, especially in the North, so as I wrote in that post there are hints of more (impotent) imperial dick swinging.

It was not a personal comment in any way at all.....

misti Technically you have to prove you won't become a burden on public funds now after 3 months to stay in another EU country anyway, so that wouldn't so much be a change rather than a more rigid application of an existing rule.

A very interesting insight into the experience of a Muslim naturalised citizen and how they feel increasingly second class www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/02/struggle-british-life-as-second-class-citizen

BigChoc in living memory of a generation of Europeans, trains left their stations, with those who had been told to leave. Guilt actually caused a significant amount of problems to the collaborators . I think that, gives them a moral and civilising perspective on 'immigrants' from wherever.

Like some one said before, Europe is tiny. It's as daft wondering why anyone would move from Sunderland to London as it is, from Krakov to Luton. Just daft.

Jaws Glad you're here!

Peregrina The Electoral Commission data also reveals that Ukip raised just £33k, less than the Green Party and Co-operative Party

How does Banks afford to pay so many on piece work?

The Russian links, the Trump, links the Atlantic Bridge, are the smoking gun that needs to be investigated.

US press, US constituents at town hall meetings are calling out Trump's Russian links, the same needs to be done here, with so much funding available fro UKIP and Banks, when as far as I know it doesn't work like the SWP with 10% of income deducted for the party.

Banks and UKIP's money..

I do not see her gaining significant support to treat immigrants badly and I do not even think it is her intention to do so.

I think she would garner substantial support from treating immigrants badly - in fact I am convinced that there has been a substantial shift in the Overton window since last year, and that May is determined to take advantage of this.

Last year I think there would have been strong resistance from leavers and people generally to the deportation of white people of European heritage with families in the UK. Reading recent threads where "roolz iz roolz" has been used to defend the refusal of PR, and the despatch of threatening letters, to EU citizens often with a long history of working in the UK, tells me that many people would be quite comfortable with a hardline approach.

You can't extrapolate this directly to the population, but these ideas have certainly gained momentum in the past year.

misti Technically you have to prove you won't become a burden on public funds now after 3 months to stay in another EU country anyway, so that wouldn't so much be a change rather than a more rigid application of an existing rule.

In practice this ceased to be the case in around 2004.

In 1998, we were required to prove this for my partner, who wasn't in work (he was doing up our house). He was refused a resident's card even though he had assets (excluding property) of over £100k - they wanted the assets in France, and not held in joint accounts (so we set him up a French bank account and transferred some money into it, but that wasn't acceptable either because it had come from a joint account lol). We actually got married mainly to secure his resident's card and his right to be on my health insurance!

So I am far from convinced that the return of such requirements would be a hurdle easily surmounted by most British migrants.

I don't think the Lords decision will help eu immigrants feel less like second class citizens.

I have a horrible feeling that it will make life worse for immigrants here. It has the potential to make people angry that a decision has been made by unelected Lords to give eu citizens a privelage that uk citizens in the eu do not have.

If you were bigoted or racist that sort of thing could very easily make you feel justified in behaving badly towards eu citizens. I really hope that it is not the case, but I do think a unilateral agreement would have been much less inflammatory.

I do think a unilateral agreement would have been much less inflammatory.

A unilateral agreement is exactly what the Lords' amendment proposes, so I'm glad that you've changed your mind about it!

It has the potential to make people angry that a decision has been made by unelected Lords to give eu citizens a privelage that uk citizens in the eu do not have.

I think you are wrong - the racists and bigots couldn't care less about the people living overseas. As far as they are concerned, they have left the country and shouldn't be entitled to anything. Such opinions have already been expressed on MN threads. [We need a crocodile crying emoticon.]

^Corbyn team now willing to take advice from Mandelson and Progress for sake of Labour unity, says McDonnell
He was particularly positive about Mandelson. He said he had recently listened to Mandelson’s speech in the article 50 debate in the House of Lords. (He did not say if it was Mandelson’s speech in the second reading debate, or his speech in the committee stage debate on Monday^
It was an incredibly interesting speech. And after that I took the view that I would meet him and talk it through, because we need everyone’s advice on how we go forward, particularly on the Brexit negotiations.

What he said was exactly the same as us; we need access to that single market. If we lose access to that single market, we’re already seeing that the threat of not getting access to that single market is influencing investment decisions^

Mood music in labour seems to be shifting slightly on brexit, yesterday Corbyn gave a hint of a change too. ...

Misti Being 60, I admit I naturally associate with an older demographic
You are quite right that younger expats have some different concerns

I don't know what would happen to those, whether UK or E27, who have less than 5 years residency and are not self-supporting - well, tbh I suspect they'll have to return.
However, in E27 countries, it is normally ok to stay if they are supported by a family member
e.g. In Germany, the SAHP of a Korean colleague has recvd her permanent residence card after the standard 5 years.

I don't know if this would be the same in the UK

misti I've mentioned Finland before on here as being fairly hot on proving the self sufficiency thing, so in some eu countries it's still being used. But yes, just as eu migrants struggle over here I'm sure uk migrants will similarly struggle wherever they are. Hindsight being wonderful and all that, it's a shame more places haven't adopted a checking approach including us. Not surprising we haven't bothered though, we don't really want people knowing their rights too much

Really! What a horrible attitude peregrina glad I wasn't on that thread.

I am generally whenever someone claims they are worried something would make other people react badly against foreigners

I don't know what would happen to those, whether UK or E27, who have less than 5 years residency and are not self-supporting - well, tbh I suspect they'll have to return.
However, in E27 countries, it is normally ok to stay if they are supported by a family member

I think this is probably accurate. Any differences in treatment (UK versus EU migrants) will primarily concern the treatment of the EU spouses of UK citizens/ EU parents of British children. Certainly in France, a foreign parent raising a French child has a right to remain on this basis that is not conditional upon meeting other criteria.

Would appear you are right misti and BCF, if the racists don't like it, HOL must've done something right.
And it's finally a signal to EU that not everyone in Britain has lost all of their marbles.

I have seen racism many times aimed at myself and others.

The perpetrator almost always has a "justification" for their actions. That "justification" is never based on the bahaviour or actions of the victim, but can have terrible consequences.

it's a shame more places haven't adopted a checking approach including us.

It would fuck up your net migration stats, though, because under the pre 2004 rules, a significant proportion of working age Brits in France and Spain wouldn't have been granted resident's cards.

I don't think it's quite as simple as you make out, tbh. In practice for over a decade now there have been few if any barriers to Brits moving to France even without a job. A few years ago, the French tried to make pre-retirement migrants who were not working pay for their own healthcare though private insurance - but this got slapped down by the EU.

I don't think the Lords decision will help eu immigrants feel less like second class citizens.

It has already helped. You're not helping, with your insistence that it's not helping when we're telling you it is.
Anyone who wants to 'behave badly' can go right ahead and do it and will be dealt with by the law.

if the racists don't like it, HOL must've done something right.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Regardless of whether one has reservations about the HoL amendment (I do), anything which pisses off the racists is a good thing.

misti of course it's not. Nothing is ever simple when it comes to government! And those who think it is tend to not have a great grip on reality .

fawful definitely. Id hazard a bet that a straw poll of immigrants would very quickly show that they'd much prefer their status guaranteed even if it meant riling some stupid ignoramouses (sic) who's actions should have harsh legal consequences. And they'd far prefer that to being left in limbo in case the nastier elements of society get upset.

Ian Dunt on the Lords amendment:

Lords amendment doesn't even demand unilateral action on EU cits, just 3 week deadline for plan. Govt still opposes

It feels like every day this government comes up with another reason to make me ashamed to be British.

Of all the policies I've seen since Brexit - from the idiotic, to the ignorant to the irresponsible - this is surely the worst.

Sorry, hit wrong button and posted too early.

Dunt continues:

Argument that they're needed for trade off w pensioners in Spain is turgid bloody nonsense. We're responsible for moral decisions we take in our territory. We have forced 3 million people to live in fear of deportation. If Spain starts deporting Brits, which they won't & prob legally can't, it'll make little difference that we start turfing out non-Spaniards.

Some Brexiters have expressed from the beginning their support for E27 expats and UK expats remaining in their chosen homes

• not surprisng these Brexiters seem also to support the HoL decision.

I think it's very important that Remainers & Leavers work together when we find common cause:
protecting both vulnerable UK and E27 citizens against May's very nasty govt.
If we don't unite, she'll play one side against the other. Tories are brilliant at that.

Some other Brexiters were saying UK expats had abandoned their country, so should not have any say - a couple of posts on these Westminster threads complained about UK expats posting.

I wonder if some of those are now suddenly expressing their faux concern for us.
Please own your views and if you feel angry towards E27 expats because of the HoL, just say so, maybe explain why.

Don't claim that making E27 expats feel less secure is something you are dong for my benefit.

Are you speaking for all migrants, to the UK-I already know you are not.
Am I speaking on behalf of everyone who voted brexit-no I am not.
Am I speaking as someone who wishes to calm tensions and to avoid pushing crazy people further towards xenephobia-yes

I assume along with normal people who voted brexit like me... there are also bound to be some really crazy xenephobic arseholes. Making these people angry by having the undemocratic hol grant something which is not available to Britons abroad will make them angry even if (unlike me) they are not particularly worried about it. Unfortunately that is what crazy racist idiots are like.

I hope if this does push them further we can throw away the key, but the reality is racism is a nasty creeping culture and is not easily.policed. I am just telling you, because I really worry that this sort of thing (which is undemocratic) will push the crazy xenophobes too far as it will provide them with "justification". Once they are out they are hard to put away again.