Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

I would keep all of the above with no exceptions re echr

I would expect british expats to be doing the same to secure their future by applying for citizenship yes.

My friend in Ireland is in the process if it now.

Of

Lico Is that the state pension you are worried about losing ? Surely not if you paid NI at least 10 years.
UK expats receive theirs even if they've lived abroad 30 years, in Timbuktu
That would be confiscation of assets if the govt stopped your pension

I hope the EU negotiators are savvy enough to realise May could be that nasty.
This is an example of why they need to negotiate terms for all EU and UK expats together, instead of bilateral deals where May can cherry pick
Equal rights for all !

I'll share happily with you, woman but I'm hooked on Lindt 90% cocoa Mild Excellence choc.
The proper stuff, puts hairs on your chest
< SHIT ! Checks in panic under pyjama top >

Some of these questions do make me wonder what you think of the rest of the human race

You seem to be completely unable to understand why you would vote for brexit unless you are some sort of wierd xenophobe intent on distoying the universe and devoid of human emotion and compassion (often expressed by the buzzword of the moment faux-compassion and faux-concern)

I suggest you knock it off.

Yes I very very much doubt that you need to worry about confiscation of assets. There would be uproar if that happened and I would be there giving them hell.

Oh shit, must remember it's only supposed to be faux concern. I voted brexit so I am not allowed to worry about these things.

Destroying

Am I speaking as someone who wishes to calm tensions and to avoid pushing crazy people further towards xenephobia-yes
I assume along with normal people who voted brexit like me... there are also bound to be some really crazy xenephobic arseholes.

If you assumed that, and you must have assumed that, or else you would not have seen that execrable and well-calculated and roundly condemned poster before the referendum, why did you still go ahead and vote Brexit?

You can't have missed that poster and you can't have misunderstood the feeling behind it, or the grounds on which it was condemned.

If you are not a supporter of crazy xenophobic attitudes, why vote for the side that was supported by people with crazy xenophobic attitudes?

Was Brexit worth the cost of encouraging the crazy xenophobic arseholes to think they had more support for their racism than they allegedly have?

Making these people angry by having the undemocratic hol grant something which is not available to Britons abroad will make them angry even if (unlike me) they are not particularly worried about it...the reality is racism is a nasty creeping culture and is not easily.policed...I really worry that this sort of thing (which is undemocratic) will push the crazy xenophobes too far as it will provide them with "justification". Once they are out they are hard to put away again.

You have it very wrong, Yer.
The thing that encourages the xenophobic racism is people who see it in all its ugliness, understand what it is, and still go out and vote for it. People like you in other words.

The thing that gives them pause is the House of Lords debate and the vote going the way it went.

...the undemocratic HoL...

And I want to add, the thing that really, really, really encourages them is people like you who denigrate a branch of the government by calling it 'undemocratic'. People who denigrate the courts are right up there with you.

The very least you can claim about yourself is that you are a fellow traveler.

I condemn the poster

I believe we are better off outside the eu

I voted for the goal of being outside the eu, not for a few other voters who might be xenophobes.

The house of lords is undemocratic in its very nature and I hope it is abolished.

I also wish that the press had not called independent judges "enemies of the people".

It is bollocks, but that is why I do not read papers who do this sort of thing.

I'm sorry Math but why should I let a small minority of rascist pigs influence my vote on what I believe is best for this country. I didn't like the poster and what it stood for any more than I believed what was painted on the side of a big red bus. I thought and still think we are better off out of the EU plain and simple and that is the way I voted. If that leads people to the assumption and generalisation that I am xenophobic there probably isn't anything much I can say to that except my conscience is clear.

Math anxiety it is "people like you" who make your own argument look ridiculous and unfounded and "people like you" who are unable to look past the end of their own nose for long enough to learn why people who voted for brexit in the first place.

It would have been in the interests of Europeans and uk citizens to come to an advance arrangement...

There is an advance agreement. It is the agreement under which citizens of the rest of the EU live in the UK right now. There is another agreement on top of that that allows Irish EU citizens to live in the UK, that predates the EEC. Both of those agreements have been undermined repeatedly by Theresa May in speeches that are on record.

If you want to think 60% of the population are xenophobes then there is something very wrong with you

Math... I get it, but if there is a way of securing your future in the uk by getting citizenship then go and do it.

The thing that gives them pause is the House of Lords debate and the vote going the way it went

It really doesnt

There are many posters on here who are clearly only concerned about their own personal position and not about what is best for the UK. [Tryingtosaveup]

A perfect example of not letting people's actual lives get in the way of the concept of 'the UK'.

Tell me what you know about EU farm subsidies, UK food imports, farm reliance on seasonal labour...

Tell me what you make of the Belfast Telegraph report on the dire straits of Northern Irish farmers facing the cutoff of millions of £ in EU subsidies, and who now stand to lose their livelihood and their homes.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-dairy-farmers-asked-to-repay-loans-and-leave-banks-35494195.html

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/ulster-bank-sells-at-least-18-farm-loans-to-cerberus-35125822.html
Do you consider the sale of UK farms and farmhouses that have been lived in by farm families for generations to American vulture funds like Cerberus part of the unavoidable collateral of seeking the best interests of the UK?

When you speak of 'the UK' what exactly are you talking about?

We have had very civilised discussions with some Brexiters on these threads, who we know are not racist, who just have different views to us on how the Uk can best prosper.

At least one has posted she agrees with the HoL, but none of them have ever claimed the HoL or HoC should not vote a certain way, in case it "pushes the crazy xenophobes too far "

Claiming "other people" might be pushed into dangerous actions often seems an implicit threat.

If Parliament really voted so as not to offend racists, to avoid the far right murdering another MP like Jo Cox, to avoid IS or IRA bombing London - that would be the end of Uk democracy.
The end of the Uk as an independent country, because leaders like Putin and Trump are much tougher than any of the above.

I hope when this is all over the British nationals feel as confident in their rights in the eu as some say they do on this forum [YER]

The UK nationals living in EU states can be confident that the ECHR has their backs, a privilege their fellow citizens at home in Blighty will not enjoy.

All you will have, in fact, is the hope that an unelected body that does not sway according to the diktat of the gutter press or worry about pandering to knuckle dragging voters who believe slogans on busses will stand up for your rights.

None of us here think 52% of the population, or anything like it, are xenophobic

However, we are concerned that Brexit is being led in the hardest direction possible for the vulnerable by a hard right Tory government that is xenophobic.
By a PM who surpasses her own record as Home Secretary for being xenophobic and plain nasty.

Several Brexiters on these threads also worry about a hard right Brexit and we find common cause on many issues.
We don't pander to xenophobia, don't pander to prejudice against those on longterm benefits, the sick, the disabled, the poor.

Bigchoc - we have a Tory government at the moment, yes they are going to have to negotiate us out of the EU and I would rather TM was doing it than JC to be honest, however, a Tory government is not a forever thing (assuming Labour get their act together like uummm yesterday). I have a disabled son so the thought of a Tory government long term does not fill me with joy.

YER, I don't need to. I am Irish and I have the passport to prove it.
I have relatives who have made their lives in the UK - cousins who were born there and their parents who moved there from Ireland and from Asia. They own houses there. They have jobs there and they have paid taxes there since the late 1950s or since graduating from university in the late 80s. They are hardworking people who have contributed in every way to their communities. Their futures are now so uncertain that they have secured their Irish passports, as have many thousands of others.

There is no way for one of my cousins to secure his future or his family's future in the UK. His City job may mean a move to NYC or to Frankfurt. His children will be uprooted, and two sets of grandparents and many cousins, uncles and aunts will be bereft.

Another cousin has seen her university department's research projects dwindle already, as EU grants have gone elsewhere. Her colleagues are almost all hoping to find positions elsewhere.

YERerseISootTHEwindy Thu 02-Mar-17 23:55:44
If you want to think 60% of the population are xenophobes then there is something very wrong with you

If you want to prove that 60% of the population are not xenophobes then let's see 59+% of them voting for someone or something other than the party and the proposition favoured by those who by your own admission are crazy xenophobic arseholes.

You are judged by the company you keep.

It's interesting that we remainers hate prejudice and xenophobia, yet some of us are quite happy to apply negative stereotypes to all those who exercised their democratic right to vote leave.

If you believe that because of some racist elements of the leave campaign, all those who voted leave are racists, do you feel that all Muslims are terrorists on the basis of ISIS, or that all those in Southern US states are Ku Klux Klan members?