Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

And if you believe Muslims or those from the Southern US when they say "not in my name", is there a reason why the same courtesy is not being extended to those who voted leave?

Surely part if being liberal is looking at all sides and refusing to tar everyone with the same brush. Does this only apply to those who think the same way we do then? In our echo chamber? I am feeling sad that liberal remainers are not who I thought they were. Brexit has revealed prejudice and intolerance on all sides.

If you believe that because of some racist elements of the leave campaign, all those who voted leave are racists, do you feel that all Muslims are terrorists on the basis of ISIS, or that all those in Southern US states are Ku Klux Klan members?

All who voted Leave and claim to have made an intelligent, rational decision to do so (the vast majority here claim exactly that) would have been aware of who else was voting Leave, who was campaigning for Leave, and would have been aware of the undercurrents to the Leave campaign that were well out in the open, certainly after the murder of Jo Cox and after the infamous Farage poster appeared.

People who went ahead and voted Leave regardless of the ugliness, the appeal to irrationality and to very base kneejerk reactions were at the very least prepared to put up with it all for some higher good they perceived. This is not a principled stand, but rather a pragmatic one, where negative consequences for many people were discounted. Did these people not study history?

Tryingtosaveup said upthread There are many posters on here who are clearly only concerned about their own personal position and not about what is best for the UK but I think it can safely be said that people who voted Leave were very likely doing so because they perceived no down side for them, despite all the language about being overrun and reclaiming Britain (from whom, and why?) and despite all the warnings about problems for the economy.

And I personally do not let a comment like 'undemocratic HoL' go without hopping on it.

Either you support the rule of law or you do not. I have no time for revolutionaries.

If you understand the ramifications of slogans or tropes like 'undemocratic HoL' then you are playing with revolution.

And if you believe Muslims or those from the Southern US when they say "not in my name", is there a reason why the same courtesy is not being extended to those who voted leave?

It should be, where they make it clear that "not in my name" is genuine.

I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt where it's deserved (and I very much do NOT agree with maths' post above). It's clear that some leave voters were genuinely motivated by sovereignty issues, or a sense that supranational bodies are inherently illiberal, and I have some patience with those views where they are expressed consistently. For example, I have frequently linked to blogs by soft brexit groups like Richard North's and I have some time, if not for his views, then for the consistency and rigour with which they are expressed.

These people's convictions should not be rubbished because the binary nature of the referendum forced them to get into bed with racists and the worst sort of small minded little englanders.

OTOH, when these "principled" leavers fail to stand up for the Lords' reasonable amendment, when they fail to condemn other leavers chanting "roolz iz roolz" when the EU spouses of UK citizens are refused PR without good reason - then those people need to have a long hard look at themselves, and think about the sort of people that they have are in bed with, and who, in the absence of pushback from the leave side, appear more and more to represent the views of ALL leave voters.

And I personally do not let a comment like 'undemocratic HoL' go without hopping on it.

Agree with math on this point.

It is one thing to think that the HoL is an anachronism that should be replaced by an elected body. It's another thing to criticise a pillar of our democracy as "undemocratic" just because it voted the wrong way.

Reform of the Lords should be based on reinforcing democracy; it shouldn't be about attempting to weaken its ability to hold the executive to account.

Any leaver criticising the courts or the HoL for being "undemocratic" immediately forfeits the right to be taken seriously when they say "it was all about sovereignty".

time4chocolate Thu 02-Mar-17 23:48:05
I'm sorry Math but why should I let a small minority of rascist pigs influence my vote on what I believe is best for this country. I didn't like the poster and what it stood for any more than I believed what was painted on the side of a big red bus.

But your convictions were strong enough to overcome your distaste, and the principle of community was therefore cast aside.

Why should I let a small minority of former Provisional IRA members and former bombers and gunmen stop me from voting Sinn Fein? The rest of the party are probably well qualified for political office after all. I will tell you why. It is because principles matter.

Why should I let a small minority of former Provisional IRA members and former bombers and gunmen stop me from voting Sinn Fein?

Unlike the referendum, choice of which party to vote for is rarely binary.

All right then, supposing it is November and I am in the US and I hate Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton equally or like Clinton and Trump equally - there are elements of both platforms that I agree with, let's say.

Do I vote for Gary 'What's a leppo?' Johnson or Jill Whatsherface, or do I vote for Hillary Clinton because I have been put off by the anti-immigrant bashing of Trump?

Do I sit home and watch the results on tv?

While choice of who to vote for is hardly ever binary, some voting choices are effectively a wasted vote. This could well be the case in a NI election.

Your point about the binary nature of US elections is taken, but the referendum was still different math. Mainly, to be fair, because it literally had no manifesto or plan.

You can accuse leavers who voted leave despite the lack of plan and despite the racism for being naive. But it's unfair to draw parallels with Trump. People who voted Trump voted for someone who ran on a very explicit and well-publicised platform of building a wall and deporting millions of people; it's fair to say that Trump voters explicitly sanctioned this. OTOH leave voters were told repeatedly told that existing EU immigrants were not at risk. They may have been naive to believe this, but naivety and racism are not the same thing.

Using ISIS/Muslims as you example grommit is lazy and pretty offensive tbh. One is a massive, worldwide and very ancient religion with many sects and huge variety. The number of extremists will be relatively small compared to the size of the Muslim population and the reasons for extremism are complex.
The other was a binary, one off vote, where I would imagine a much higher proportion of leave voters were and are xenophobic. Not all, but far higher than in the lazy examples that you use.

A much better example would be people who vote for ukip. Yeah sure, they're not ALL xenophobic, but......

Extremism has no logic, morality or humanity. I always knew that, now I am living it.

The idiotic nature of the referendum question was automatically going to force the population into two nonsensical extremes. Reality is nuanced, democracy is supposed to mitigate it.

"Surely part if being liberal is looking at all sides and refusing to tar everyone with the same brush. Does this only apply to those who think the same way we do then?"

That's your problem right there, Grommits. You are doing exactly what you complain of: assuming that, because people voted to Remain, they are liberals and they "think as we do" (whatever that is).

Of course it is not true. Remainers - and Leavers! - are from all over the political spectrum with very different viewpoints.

I think a better analogy is not IS or UKIP. It's the Countryside Alliance a few years ago, set up under the umbrella of representing everyone concerned about various aspects of Country life that they felt was under attack. They got a lot of support from people living in the countryside who felt marginalised and forgotten.

Many were subsequently horrified to find themselves sharing a platform with the pro-hunting lobby.

Can't help thinking that May is repeating past mistakes:
picking a fight with EU that she can't win; forcing Scotland to accept WM decision, gain, it went badly last time for Thatcher
and in NI:
If Sinn Féin emerges as the largest political party, its new leader in Northern Ireland, Michelle O’Neill, could become first minister. The posts of first and deputy first minister are equal under the complex rules of power sharing between Catholics and Protestants, but if Sinn Féin seizes the first minister’s post, it would mark a major psychological blow against unionism.
Predicted polls:
DUP 26.3% (-2.9% from 2016)
Sinn Féin 25.3 (1.3)
UUP 13.9 (1.3)
SDLP 12.2 (0.2)
A smaller DUP would mean May would have to force decisions very overtly on NI, again, that didn't go down well last time. No grin.

Trump is flaring up again. With the strategic attack on Sessions and the Russian links pre elections, the democrats are playing the long game. This could be the start of the end, or the beginning of the true terror of a Pence presidency.

Just a quick reminder of the facile and duplicitous nature of the Leave campaign. Gove saying of course it will be fine to go and retire in France after we leave, and we are going to conduct our relationship with Europe as good neighbours rather than the difficult partner that we are in the EU I wonder if all his "friends" who live in the South of France have punched him in his smug patronising face yet? m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=e7pgCzjnOQQ

it will be fine to go and retire in France
ron it is too early form me to risk seeing that person on film.
Explaining brexit to the uninformed in terms like divorce has helped the twits in power, atm, but does nothing to navigate the realities of an international crisis.
It's not a marriage, it's not a divorce.

One of the problems with the Muslim/ISIS comparison is that Muslim identity, just as with gender, ethnicity, and most religious and cultural identities, is something that people (with the exception of a small number of converts) are born into, whereas the referendum vote was something people had a conscious choice in selecting.

I don't think all Leave voters are xenophobic or racist, but I do object to the many Leave voters trying to wash their hands off the result, and pass the buck on e.g., the lack of a credible plan. If you don't like the xenophobic undertone of the government and current Brexit plans, then you must take responsibility and do something about it.

I feel sorry for people like YER who voted Leave for their own(good) reasons but wo really realising what they were actually voting for.

I believe that the reason for that is that there wasn't ONE discourse for the Leave vote but several running alongside each other.
So some people have voted for what they thought was the right thing to do for Britain but not for some of the other discourses, e.g. The xenophobic ones, that were also going round.

The issue with that, is that when one is voting Leave, they have voted both for their idea of Leave and their reasons to leave to EU but they also have voted for the xenophobic discourse about Brexit. That means they ave validated that xenophobic discourse by default, even if this was not what they wanted iyswim.

I'm afaraid people like YER have mssive issues with being associated with xenophobic people, which is fully understandable, BUT, being a Leave voters means you ARE associated with xenophobic voters by default ....

BigChoc:
Yes , it is my State pension that I am worried about. The way things are going, I am not surprised at anything..

missmoon I am a bit shocked at the blithe conflation of Muslim / ISIS in your post. ISIS didn't exist till very recently and in my lifetime the change in ME lifestyle is so stark as to be unrecognisable - I really don't think anyone is born with it

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/83834/excl-labour-membership-falls-more
EXCL Labour membership falls by more than 5,000 in just one week over Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit

Kersal (Salford) result:
CON: 42.0% (-1.4)
LAB: 27.3% (-21.5)
IND: 17.5% (+17.5)
UKIP: 9.0% (+9.0)
GRN: 2.4% (-3.4)
LDEM: 1.9% (+1.9)

Salford....

Mudeford & Friars Cliff (Christchurch) result:
CON: 46.8% (-9.0)
IND: 34.7% (+34.7)
LAB: 6.8% (-9.6)
UKIP: 6.3% (-21.4)
GRN: 5.4% (+5.4)

Big ukip collapse...

Oh but as Gromit says it is all binary, you are either a liberal leftie out of touch hypocritical self seeking moaning metropolitan elite remainer or you are a clever, knows what's best for the country, non racist (in fact you have a Polish friend) leaver Therefore of course all those who voted remain, along with any of the pillars of our democracy that are supposed to provide checks and balances / scrutiny, should recognise they are wrong and shut the fuck up, about everything.

A Conservative peer who accused the House of Lords of “thinking of nothing but the rights of foreigners” employed immigrants in his home, it has been claimed.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-peer-lord-norman-tebbit-eu-citizens-right-to-stay-brexit-bill-immigrant-workers-home-a7607466.html