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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

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Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 11:18

The division is tribal because it's been dumbed down to that level due to a complete lack of actual facts to base discussions on.

Sadly it seems there is little if no appetite on one side for that to change and we just need to have a tea party to get over it Hmm

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 11:18

Are leavers getting a say Miss Moon? As keeps being said....there was nothing on the ballot about the type of exit, except that we would leave the EU which most would take to mean all associated bodies. The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion- which Id be so bold to say far outstrips that of we randoms on t'internet.

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 11:21

apologies, posted too soon but you get the gist.

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 11:23

Leavers are getting no more say that a Remainers but that's part of the problem.

Leavers seem happy with that, Remainers aren't.

I cannot fathom why you now think an elected government will act in the best interests if the country and are happy to give them carte Blanche over Brexit when many who voted Leave did so because they were disenfranchised by the fact successive governments have made decisions based on their own best interests, not those of the country as a whole.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 11:24

" The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion- which Id be so bold to say far outstrips that of we randoms on t'internet."

I think you are just trying to get a rise out of people now. I was going to post a response. MP's or prospective MP's who will do anything if they think it will keep their own seat and their party in power. So many who have had to resign because of crookedness or irresponsibility.

But I won't. You were making a joke, I'm sure.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 11:29

Whilst I applaud the efforts of Brendan Cox I do feel there is a problem with what he has planned. The whole concept is self selecting and self limiting. I notice this:

Those who have already pledged their support range from the Women’s Institute to the RNLI, with the Scouts and Guides movement, the Royal British Legion, Glastonbury Festival, the Countryside Alliance, the TUC, football’s Premier League, Amnesty International and the RSPB.

These are groups who mainly get support from the better off and the already engaged. Rather than bridging divisions, unless thought about carefully it runs the risk of peaching to the converted.

I'm not convinced its noble ambitions are solved by garden parties. I don't mean to be too critical of Brendan Cox, and I do think doing something positive is better than doing nothing at all, but it is worth being aware of its limitations and what more needs to be done.

The question is more what can you do that gets people who are not engaged to think differently. To think that something is worthwhile supporting and getting involved in. That something probably has to have some sort of benefit for them involved. It has to be easily accessible on their doorstep.

What happens in Stoke and Copeland in a fortnight, in a month, in six months time, etc is more important to local people than what happens today.

I don't know what the answer is myself. I do think we need to start thinking about what that answer could be though. And though given to how it empowers people who don't have that power rather than it being something somehow imposed by others.

The them and us is driven by people not mixing. It is limited by access to mobility on one side. It is driven by a lack of initial resources and motivation to get something off the ground on one side.

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RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 11:31

yougov.co.uk/news/2017/02/22/labour-leadership-election-round-three-publics-vie/]]
Labour leadership election round three? The public’s view of the runner and riders

YouGov look at how individual figures in Labour are viewed in the context of a future possible leadership change.

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders
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LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 11:33

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-drives-registration-of-100-000-uk-firms-in-ireland-1.2985509

British MPs have been told 100,000 firms in the UK have registered companies in Ireland since last year’s vote to leave the European Union. Stephen Kelly, chief executive of campaigning organisation

Manufacturing Northern Ireland, told a House of Commons committee that UK companies were registering in Ireland as hedges “against worst-case scenarios, if they develop”.

(contd)

Looks like it will be a Red, White, Blue ... and (Emerald) Green Brexit then Hmm

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 11:36

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion- which Id be so bold to say far outstrips that of we randoms on t'internet.

If we build a railway or an airport, we have thing called a 'public consultation. The decision to build the railway may have been made in principle but how its actually done involves input from the public. And then those initial plans might be changed or scrapped altogether upon reflection. This is usually accompanied by a white paper which has lots of detail that can be properly debated.

looks around

Nope. Not seeing the same for Brexit. But as you were.

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lalalonglegs · 23/02/2017 11:37

I'm biting - I'm going to post notes through the doors of the houses on my street to see if there is any interest in holding a party. I have no illusions about bridging divides, it just seems a good excuse for a get-together (and I refused to do anything for the Jubilee being a bit bah humbug about the royal family). Hopefully my neighbours will want to be involved; hopefully people will enjoy themselves.

RedAndYellowStripe · 23/02/2017 11:40

WringTrouser
I agree with you and Brendan Cox actually.
We are jocusibg on differences, these are the ones always an dalways highlighted and we forget what is also bringing us together.
The Queen won't be the one for me Grin but there is much more I think that unite people in England and in the uk than the Queen.
And yes it will take more than a tea party. But you end to start somewhere. What else would you propose to start filling the huge gap that has been created been Leavers and Remainers but also between Brits and 'foreigners', EU or not?

And I say that as someone who really feels that my house is now burning down. I am very angry and those who set fire to their house next to me and to the fire brigade not responding either.
But if we want to be able to live together in the same country, we will have to learn to accept each other again.
And for me that means stopping the insults from both sides.

WrongTrouser · 23/02/2017 11:45

These are groups who mainly get support from the better off and the already engaged. Rather than bridging divisions, unless thought about carefully it runs the risk of peaching to the converted

I understand what you are getting at Red but I think if you are implying that the division in this country is not, in quite a large part, coming from the better off and already engaged you are wrong.

The them and us is driven by people not mixing

I think this is only half the story. I don't know about you, but I avoid discussing Brexit with most of my family and quite a few of my friends, and some I am just avoiding altogether as I haven't yet summoned up the mental energy to disabuse them of their assumption that I am devastated by the referendum result. The division in this country, post referendum, is not just between people in completely different social circles.

RedAndYellowStripe · 23/02/2017 11:47

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion

Which elected government? The current MOs have no been elected on the grounds on Brexit at all. And the challenges that we are facing, that will also being a need to redefine our priorities in terms of budget, support for the different sectors of the industries/services etc..., have certainly never been discussed at the time of the last GE.
As far as I am concerned, we don't have an elected government that has been chosen for Uts current policies now, with the priorities that theirs now.
The reasons for the vote are too different to the current realities now that, IMO, we can say the public had any input in the current decisions. (At the very least, which way are we heading, are we destroying the NHS etc etc)

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 11:47

Bored I am very impressed you have devined the exact opinions on Brexit of most of those who voted Leave. If indeed most wanted to leave all EU bodies entirely and persue the cliff edge option why did those pesky kippers feel the need to hold out the olive branch of staying in the single market to entice voters to vote Leave, it was surely not because they believed it? Unfortunately lots of Leave voters including many of the ones I know fell for that. I would agree many Leave voters were not guided in their vote by explicit racism /stupidity but by issues related to "control" or "sovereignty" but in many cases that was the wish to return to the relationship we had with the EU when we joined what was essentially just a trading block. The middle ground that could unite a lot of the electorate who voted both Leave and Remain is single market access, because very many do recognise the damage that will be done by turning our backs on our trading and knowledge economy related relationships with Europe. May alienates a large proportion of the population with the signals that her bottom line once she does not succeed in cherry picking is no deal.

CarelessWispas · 23/02/2017 11:49

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion

Regrettably there is no applicable learned opinion in this government. Which is why they are recruiting so desperately for international trade specialists aka learned opinions. Speeches from Davis, May, Fox and Johnson would uphold that cluelessness abounds. And let's face it after 8 months I think we'd know if they'd been hiding their lights under a bushel Wink

Even more regrettably, the relevant industry body ie management consultants are pretty unanimous in their genuinely learned opinions that the government is clueless and incapable with regard to Brexit strategy, execution planning and even the most basic capabilities around trade negotiation. The Deloitte leaked memo was a mere taster...KPMG has published a wealth of opinion pieces too (even though they are set to profit enormously from the chaotic impact of Brexit).

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 11:58

Careless You can add in to that most Bank Analysts and our Science and other academic communities but of course they are experts and not learned like hacks, geographers, landed gentry Conservative politicians,

CarelessWispas · 23/02/2017 11:59
Grin
boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 12:13

Business skill and academic talent are a world apart though. All the old forecasting and prediction models are broken. All those who looked to the past for guidance are floundering. Business tends to look forward and thus will find a way.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 12:13

I think this is only half the story. I don't know about you, but I avoid discussing Brexit with most of my family and quite a few of my friends, and some I am just avoiding altogether as I haven't yet summoned up the mental energy to disabuse them of their assumption that I am devastated by the referendum result. The division in this country, post referendum, is not just between people in completely different social circles.

Fair point.

I think my thinking today is clouded by thinking too much about the by-elections, and how to engage with non-voters. Plus I see what Brendan Cox is doing in terms being in danger of staying in an echo chamber.

I don't know how having a tea party will get people to talk any better than they did at Christmas with various members of their family though.

Phil BC‏*@philbc3* (Labour activist from Stoke)
UKIP in multiple breaches of rules. Rosetted tellers hanging around inside & directly outside entrance to polling stations. #StokeCentral

I hope he has a) complained to the poll officials b) thought about getting photos c) contacted the police d) contacted local media - as well as telling twitter then.

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GloriaGaynor · 23/02/2017 12:18

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion

It's quite characteristic of Leave voters to think the the government is more more educated, more experienced, more 'learned' than it actually is.

Whether that's to do with their own comparative education level or a simply a greater propensity to trust I don't know.

GloriaGaynor · 23/02/2017 12:20

But then why trust the government over experts?

GloriaGaynor · 23/02/2017 12:21

Aren't they learned?

Apparently it's people considered 'learned' who say what you want to hear.

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 12:28

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion

Does "learned" have any meaning these days outside the law courts? One of the curses of our times is the frequency with which otherwise reasonably intelligent people come to believe they have a valid opinion about a technical subject in which they have no training or direct experience. Not all opinions are equal.

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 12:29

Perhaps I should expand..the government, in its position of governing a country and its global relations, is learned as it tends to draw from a wide pool of resources...many of which will be the experts to whom you refer.

And there are many shades of experts. Not all are learned. IMO.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/02/2017 12:29

Completely agree with care and what

completley and utterly

Brexit may be good or bad for the country but politicians are in no way shape or form the creme de la creme of experience or intelligence

Some of them are dont get me wrong...