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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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comfortandjoyce · 27/02/2017 18:43

And yes it also reduces the attraction of coming to the uk A LOT. And is based on the assumption that there are so many people who want to come and work in the uk that the uk will be able to cherry pick who will. Hmm... not sure people will be fighting to come anymore.

Net migration to the UK peaked at 335,000 in the June 2015 to June 2016 period - a figure that proved to be politically unsustainable. That means it could fall 70% from that peak and still be running at 100,000 a year, which is probably the goal of this policy.

ElenaGreco123 · 27/02/2017 18:53

If Grayling manages to sell trains to the Japanese, I'll withdraw all my dismissive comments about him www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/chris-grayling-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

I can't believe the leading lights of the resistance are W www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/27/george-w-bush-media-immigration-donald-trump and John Major www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/27/john-major-attacks-government-over-approach-to-brexit

How can anyone tell real news and fake news apart?

DorothyL · 27/02/2017 18:56

Karneval in Germany at the moment, with a strong tradition of mocking politics. This is their take onBrexit...

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders
EurusHolmesViolin · 27/02/2017 19:17

A Labour rainbow coalition after 2010 would never have held. They basically needed pretty nigh on everyone bar the Tories and DUP, since those two between them had 314. Would at best have been a wafer thin majority riven with infighting.

I can't help looking back and wishing they'd given it a go, though...

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 19:38

From Elena's Guardian link - John Major brands Brexit 'a historic mistake'.

'I have watched with growing concern as the British people have been led to expect a future that seems to be unreal and over-optimistic,” Major said, speaking at the Chatham House thinktank. “Obstacles are brushed aside as of no consequence, whilst opportunities are inflated beyond any reasonable expectation of delivery.'

He urged May’s government to be 'realistic about the timescale and complexity of the huge undertaking that lies ahead'.

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 19:42

Irene Clenell's husband on Channel 4 news was a silent picture of the despair that deportation brings. An absolute travesty.
And as misti said further back on the thread, this is what is and will be done to the partners and children of EU citizens.
Shameful.

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 19:50

We appear to have entered an alternative reality in which GWB and John Major are the respected elder statesmen Grin

(I quite like JM, even though I am old enough to recall his slightly inept period as PM; for me and DH he will forever be assoiated with Very Important Policies like the "cone line").

lalalonglegs · 27/02/2017 19:52

I think it has been Peregrina who has been warning of the effects of Brexit upon the Oxford car industry... BMW announces Mini may be made outside the UK Sad.

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 20:02

misti I liked JM's point that TM should grow some and stand up to the same right wingers, that he had to. She and JC are just weak leaders.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 20:03

I remember him as PM, he was actually a decent person, if a not particularly charismatic leader.

It's a sign of desperate times when we look wistfully at Clarke, Heseltine and Major...

He will always be associated with grey underpants and Norma feeding him peas.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/02/2017 20:12

Comfort Making the country less attractive to immigrants, first puts off those whom the the UK wants to attract.

Those who will leave, or not bother to enter the UK:
highly qualified progessionals that UK business needs, the specialist doctors on which the NHS depends

Those who will still come:
Low income, low skilled workers from low wage countries, especially developing countries

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 20:13

And what about the British nationals who will be forced out of EU countries? This has all the makings of an international crisis.

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 20:27

woman upyou see I'm not convinced that as many Brits in the EU will be affected by that move.
To start with, no one has threatens them with deportation at this stage off the process, when the Art 50 hasn't even been signed yet.

But also the rules for immigration are very different, esp when children and a spouse are involved too.
Many more people would be at risk of deportation in the uk than they are on the continent.

S

BigChocFrenzy · 27/02/2017 20:28

The best hope for Uk expats is this mooted European citizenship, if it is approved and in a useful form.
I suspect the EU Parliament started that idea because they decided the UK immigration / Home Office system is just cruel chaos.

On another forum recently, some rightwing Conservatives were jubilant, saying the govt needs to make EU immigrants "terrified," Hmm so that they will put pressure on their govts to give the Uk a good deal. in exchange for their nationals being allowed to stay.

They were convinced the uk had great negotiating chips, with only 1 million British expats vs 3 million EU expats in the Uk

Dreadful tactics, but I suspect the govt may imdeed be thinking along those lines.
However, imo, that's more likely to piss of the entire E27 and bring demands from their outraged voters for a hard line against the UK.
Also, the 3 million in the UK are mostly young & fit, many working in the nhs and care services, or workimg to provide cheap British food.

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 20:29

RedAndYellowPeppers hope so, EU politicians have too much self respect and historical knowledge to imitate TM.

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 20:32

to make EU immigrants "terrified," hmm so that they will put pressure on their govts to give the Uk a good deal
Which theory of international diplomacy is this one? Stalin's?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/02/2017 20:33

Scientists & engineers I know in Germany, who won't have 5 years residence by 2019, are being reassured by their employers that they'll just fill out the forms for them to stay.
Then after 5 years, "third country" citizens (which Brits will then be) can apply for permanent residence.

What are pp in other countries finding ? Hmm

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 20:37

But that has been TM tactic since the start though.
Put as much pressure on the eu, terrify eu citizens (which she has been doing from day 1), if possible split the eu and destroy it. We don't need them anymore so does it matter??

The problem is that by behaving that way, she takes the risk of a Huge backlash from the EU 27 that will pissed of by her antics.

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 20:39

I agree BigChoc staying in an eu country won't be a major issue of you are working or have family there now.
The ones that might struggle are actually all the retired people in Spain and in Portugal. I'm not sure what would the situation for them.

TheElementsSong · 27/02/2017 20:42

Huge backlash from the EU 27 that will pissed of by her antics

Anything other than showering us with trade deals, rose petals, gold nuggets and naked adoration will be painted as the rEU "punishment beating" us.

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 20:43

Has a link to Major's speech been posted? In full here, worth reading by both sides:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/john-majors-incendiary-speech-branding-9929258

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 20:58

Many more people would be at risk of deportation in the uk than they are on the continent

Redandyellow not sure; it will depend on the country. But deportation isn't the only issue anyway: pensioners in Spain and France need an agreement on healthcare and pensions uprating, or they won't be able to afford to stay.

Where I live in France, there are many British families, almost none of whom are completely self-funding - most rely on benefits to a greater or lesser degree, and few work in the formal sector. The French are now applying earnings limits to applicants for ILR and most of these people will fall under this (equivalent to a full time minimum wage for each adult in the household).

I hope things don't get nasty, but don't be fooled by the brexiters who will tell you that Brits living in the EU are all rich pensioners - that is by no means true. Outside the big cities, migrants like me and bigchoc are not that numerous. Here in France, most are lifestyle émigrés living off a mixture of rental income from the UK (which has lost 20% of its value), low paid self-employment, and generous family benefits.

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 21:11

I know mistigri I'm well aware about that.
But I think there is a big difference between what you are describing and what we see here.
British in France etc... aren't demonised, they aren't told to 'go back home' and 'yes unshould have applied to get the British citizenship anyway if you really love the country' and so on.
There are rules but they are not unhumane rules (yet??).
I have seen the french system years ago working with my uncle who was stateless. Even to come over for a visit after my aunt and him got married, there was A LOT of paperwork, visit to check where he would be staying, was it suitable etc... so I'm aware it's not plain sailing.
What you don't have is a system that is modified retroactively or one that is happy to split families.