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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 14:21

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 14:32

Referring back to the previous discussion on the LDs:

David Laws on why the LDs formed a coalition with Tories not Labour

One rather important fact - never mentioned by Andrew in his review, but referred to in ­Peter Mandelson's account of the negotiations and mentioned by many Labour senior figures - was that the electoral arithmetic meant that there would be no Lib Dem-Labour majority in the House of Commons. So any Lib-Lab coalition would have had to rely on the other parties - the DUP and the other Irish parties, a Green, and possibly the Nationalists - in order to stay in power. That would be challenging at the best of times, but having to hold together such a government while taking tough decisions on deficit reduction (necessary under any gov­ernment) would have been extraordinarily difficult. That was a crucial consideration for us, as it was for many within the Labour Party. Yet, in spite of that, the Lib Dems negotiated in good faith, and not just to strengthen our bargaining position with the Conservatives.

Instead, we found that the Conservatives made major policy concessions, and quickly; while, after three days of talking, Labour was too disorganised or divided even to table clear positions on tax, education spending, pensions or the deficit. And, on voting reform, Ed Balls was bluntly warning us that Labour MPs might not vote for their own manifesto pledge to support a referendum on the Alternative Vote.

Search

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 14:36

I was horrified by tuition fees, and also by Clegg's poor performance. However, tuition fees are undoable - and could be revisited by later, more enlightened governments. The impact of Brexit on universities will be far more damaging, and it may never be possible to fix it long term.

Peregrina · 27/02/2017 14:46

The home secretary told ITV’s Peston on Sunday that the current right to travel and work in different EU countries will not remain when Britain leaves the EU.

Yet we were categorically assured by Gisela Stuart for one that this would not change under Brexit. I would imagine that she herself must be a British citizen now, or else she would not be able to stand for Parliament, but I wonder how many of her German friends will be sent packing.

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 14:50

Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who ...

Right now, as someone who wants to express the sentiment of Remain, I either forgive - with whatever long memory I care to have - and support the LibDems.

Or I can watch the Labour party try to out-Brexit the Tories as they kick 48% of the population to the kerb.

Once again, my elders [[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/24/dont-dread-old-age-fear-tories-tyranny-austerity
inspire]] me:

Don’t dread old age. I’m 94, and I won’t spend my last years in fear of the Tories

(contd)

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 15:08

Are the shills back? Go and look at the two new threads (the Gina Miller one and the other one) and look up the "new" users who are posting on there. Some apparently recent MN recruits, mainly post on threads about refugees/ migrants/ brexit, very prolific, posting pattern that suggests shift work....

TheElementsSong · 27/02/2017 15:12

There's definitely some Shock nastiness about, and I'd rather believe they're shills than actual fellow citizens who I might encounter as I go about my daily business (having a natural propensity to tan easily, IYSWIM).

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 15:20

Yet we were categorically assured by Gisela Stuart for one that this would not change under Brexit. I would imagine that she herself must be a British citizen now, or else she would not be able to stand for Parliament, but I wonder how many of her German friends will be sent packing.

Hopefully all of them. The only person in Edgbaston left who will talk to her will be me, reminding her that she should have been careful what she was voting for - again (I already have once).

ElenaGreco123 · 27/02/2017 15:35

But if FoM ends next week, what will immediately happen to EU citizens who work here but for less than 5 years? Or is it just new arrivals? And what will the EU do in return?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 27/02/2017 15:47

misti

Agreed

There is an amazing co incidence of two 'new posters' saying the same thing one after the other

Weird...

ElenaGreco123 · 27/02/2017 15:52

Ok, so May was just testingb the water to see what she can get away with.

Article 50 day won't be cut-off date for EU migrants, No 10 suggests
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/27/article-50-day-wont-be-cut-off-date-for-eu-migrants-no-10-suggests?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 16:13

5-year visas anyone ?

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/27/uk_post_brexit_immigration_system/

The UK government is considering a five-year post-Brexit visa scheme that would allow more foreign employees – including those in the tech sector – to work in the UK, according to reports.

Ministers are considering plans that would grant more multi-year visas to migrant workers in “key” sectors, The Sunday Times reported this weekend.

(contd)

It will probably be easier to continue to move the UK tech industry abroad, than hang on for the ifs and buts (were fruit and nuts it would be Christmas every day). I would have thought the Tories would be cock-a-hoop at that. In fact the more industries we can kick out move abroad, the less need for any immigration. (See also, fintech, banking, research)

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 16:16

JP Morgan: Corporation tax cuts no silver bullet for hard Brexit

Allan Monks argues that UK corporation tax of 20% has "already hit diminishing returns." He writes:

"The most recent tax rate cut to 20% has if anything coincided with a decline in corporate tax receipts. This is very different to the 1980s, when cuts to corporation tax cuts coincided with a large increase in corporate revenues relative to GDP. At present, the OBR estimates that each 1%-pt drop in the corporation tax rate is likely to lower corporate tax revenues over three years by around £2.4bn—or 0.1% of GDP."

Not only are returns diminishing, but the Treasury forecasts that Brexit will knock 1.7% off Britain's longterm GDP growth...

Monks thinks the government would actually have to pay companies to stay in the UK for it to offset the economic shock of Brexit using corporation tax.

PattyPenguin · 27/02/2017 16:16

See also car production
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-bmw-mini-idUKKBN1661SR

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 16:19

What experienced professional would move themselves and their family to a cloudy, wet, insular England for 5 years, knowing that they would have to pay taxes but still be required to fund their own private healthcare, and would have no safety net if their employer proved unscrupulous?

You won't get low paid workers for care work either, without NHS cover and some benefits to help with housing.

I tend to agree that the jobs will instead be moved to where there is a supply of workers (where this is possible, like in IT and manufacturing).

VallarMorghulis · 27/02/2017 16:20

What are shills?

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 16:21

It will probably be easier to continue to move the UK tech industry abroad

According to Saturday's Guardian, fintech PPRO are already off to Luxembourg. Simon Black, chief exec said, “I don’t know of a licensed fintech company in the UK that isn’t looking at options.”

I'd imagine this was covered in here already.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 16:22

Setting up a fake account for a particular company/interest etc.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 16:23

Without disclosing your interest.

Shill bidding on ebay is done by the seller to up the price on an auction.

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 16:33

I'd imagine this was covered in here already.

It was. By me Smile.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 17:03

star

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 17:40

I'm absolutely not surprised at all by the move.
That would allow the uk to have 'migrants' that could not settle here at all, so would be paying taxes but wo any benefit in return at all. So no benefit of any type and no pensions to pay.
What else can one dream off really?

Except that most people who are coming here are coming with the idea to settle not bugger off after 5 years. They are not EXPATS they are immigrants.
I suspect that 3 millions EXPATS would stick out even more than 3 millions immigrants, esp if they behave the way Brits behave as EXPATS (by that I mean concentrating in little groups, expecting international schooling, food that is from the uk and so on)

Whilst all that might work well for low wage workers, I can't see it working for doctors or IT consultant etc...

And yes it also reduces the attraction of coming to the uk A LOT. And is based on the assumption that there are so many people who want to come and work in the uk that the uk will be able to cherry pick who will.
Hmm... not sure people will be fighting to come anymore.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 17:50

star was supposed to be this Star

SwedishEdith · 27/02/2017 18:37

one of the biggest problems I have with the Lib Dems (other than tuition fees) is that they went into the coalition with the tories.

I think one of the problems with having a problem is that it's possible to have a problem with all parties now. You just have to choose which problem matters the most (or which one you can overlook more easily). Vote with your head not your heart.

Interesting about Gorton, hadn't realised checked properly that it included Longsight and Levenshulme.