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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

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LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 12:22

LH - I just made that exact point to my husband whi just muttered that the LDs brought it on themselves and should have formed a coalition with Labour instead

I refer you to my comment about the LDs being grown-up.

It's hard to fault their logic in 2010. The electorate had effectively rejected the idea of a Labour government. It would have been a bit "meh" had the LDs acted to keep them in power. At the time no one knew how things would turn out.

Democracy can be a PITA at times, which is why the Tory party has so little of it. Hence their amazing ability to not give a shit what their members think. They must piss themselves laughing at all the democracy Labour party members have at their ballots.

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 12:24

Lala - one of the biggest problems I have with the Lib Dems (other than tuition fees) is that they went into the coalition with the tories

Their reasoning being it was the best thing for the country. But no one was listening.

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 12:29

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RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 27/02/2017 12:30

Agree with lurking

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 12:35

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RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 12:35

missmoon
I agree. The message is actually very aggressive and impractical to put in place straight away.
I have been wondering if this is an issue with reporting from the newspapers or if this is another attempt from TM to put pressure eon EU citizens.
I very much feel she is trying to make us leave on our accord. Less messy to do and the numbers will still look good.
As for the people the uk really needs, I think there is this maybe naive idea that people will always dream to come over here to it will never be an issue to find someone iyswim. (I do think that by behaving the way they do atm, sending people away etc etc, they are going to put a hell of people off coming)

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 12:37

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whatwouldrondo · 27/02/2017 12:47

Mother We have discussed this before and I do not think we can make windows on men's (for a male shitshow it was across all three parties) soul. I think you have to decide whether you believe them principled or not. As we had a libdem MP who shared with us the issues for him I believe it was about principles and what was best for the country. Many of them would have preferred a coalition with labour but that, or not getting into bed with the Tories would have meant another General Election, which might not have even resolved the situation. No hand at the rudder for that period of time would have been disasterous and I believe they felt that they gained enough concessions and power in the relationship to be able to protect the most vulnerable, as in those whose lives have been so much worsened by a Conservative government on full throttle. I feel sure History will judge them more kindly than the electorate.

I am angry about tuition fees as well but the Conservatives are going on to do infinitely more damage to our universities. My daughter studied alongside friends who because of their family circumstances qualified for a grant, bursaries and scholarships and are now benefitting from that chance in terms of their career. The real damage is caused by withdrawing that grant, and lessening the universities financial ability to direct fees to bursaries and scholarships for the disadvantaged.

RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 12:53

That's it! I think I found the way to convince TM just cannot put visa in place and all the rest of it

www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/02/27/brexit-could-deny-england-chance-host-champions-league-final/

Such a system would stop the UK from hosting major football finals etc...

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 12:57

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HashiAsLarry · 27/02/2017 13:00

It's hard to fault their logic in 2010. The electorate had effectively rejected the idea of a Labour government. It would have been a bit "meh" had the LDs acted to keep them in power. At the time no one knew how things would turn out.

I'm not really sure it would have turned out much better had they gone into coalition with Labour ultimately either, especially given that although the Tories hadn't got enough for a clear majority in parliament they did have a majority. Given how bad the 48/52 split on an advisory ref is and how that's apparently a mandate now. It was a tricky period over the world and a Lab/Lib coalition may have taken the brunt of a backlash anyway, leading to us being in the same position now.

Figmentofmyimagination · 27/02/2017 13:03

In what way was it best for the country ? I am genuinely intrigued

Where do you want to start? here are some of the things the LDs stopped:

  • "no fault" dismissal (the Beecroft report) - i.e. the right to sack someone for no reason in return for a small statutory payment
  • the Trade Union Act - restrictions on the right to strike, picket and protest;
  • changing the political funding rules to reduce the amount of funding provided by individual trade union members, while at the same time doing nothing about large donations from business;
  • withdrawal from the European Convention on Human Rights - the Tory wet dream - and its replacement with a British Bill of Rights
  • the decision to have a Brexit referendum at all
  • the "snoopers' charter (I don't know much about this!)

These are just the ones I can think of the top of my head.

I think most people only really noticed what an important role the LDs were playing after they'd gone.

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 13:04

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Mistigri · 27/02/2017 13:04

What happened to Irene Clennel might start happening to EU spouses of UK nationals in due course. See the link in this post:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2865375-New-EU-immigration-regulations-may-lead-to-deportations?watched=1

Weird and hostile way to open negotiations on this issue. I'm coming to the conclusion that May actively wants negotiations to fail.

PattyPenguin · 27/02/2017 13:06

A LabLib pact would have attracted support from the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Caroline Lucas for some, if not many, policies.

But that kind of rainbow coalition would have smacked too much of Continental politics and been criticised bitterly by the Tories and most of the press.

VallarMorghulis · 27/02/2017 13:08

Hi all, sorry to intrude and change the subject...

Are you aware of the difficulties that non-British EU nationals resident in the UK face in obtaining permanent residency? The problems disproportionately affect stay-at-home parents, disabled people and their carers, as well as students and the low-earning self-employed.

I've started a thread on the petitions board, asking people to support the petition to reform the PR system.

If you care about the fate of your non-British EU neighbours, friends, colleagues and family members, please sign and share the petition.

Thank you!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/2865308-Reform-the-system-of-obtaining-Permanent-Residence-Certification-Card-PR-for-non-British-EU-nationals-resident-in-the-UK?

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 13:25

vallar getting urgent to something about this now, see my post just above yours. I'm betting on the first deportations of settled EU citizens within a year, leading retaliation - the French and Spanish will get a lot more picky about whether Brits are genuinely exercising treaty rights (a lot aren't).

I am very pessimistic about a good outcome for EU migrants who do not already qualify for permanent residency.

Motheroffourdragons · 27/02/2017 13:28

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LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 13:31

In what way was it best for the country ? I am genuinely intrigued.

Because of the alternatives. In no particular order:

  1. Another General Election.
  • This would have been the last-ditch option. Assuming it resulted in a majority government (by no means guaranteed) that government would have lost a lot of legitimacy, and would have always been characterised as "second best". However there was always the risk it resulted in another NOC parliament. Only this time the smaller parties would have had even more leverage.
  1. LibLab pact.
  • The general political view in 2010 - even that admitted to by Gordon Brown - was that the electorate had rejected the Labour party. Any subsequent government that involved them would have been forever open to accusations of being "propped up".
  1. Conservative minority government.
  • Impossible in practice, and doomed to result in an impromptu election. 1979 anyone ?
  1. An informal Con-Lib agreement where the Libs voted with the Cons on diverse issues, as and when.
  • Probably the worst option. No transparency, and always open to behind the scenes abuse.

Any of the alternatives would have delivered an unstable government which we have been repeatedly told is bad for Britain. Hence my suggestion that the ConDem coalition was probably a Good Thing.

Anyway, it's all moot;. What happened happened, and people have already decided What Happened. We now have a Conservative majority government, and they are doing exactly what they Damn Well Please. And from where I am sitting the Labour Party is as much use against the oncoming Tsunami of human rights that is engulfing us, as a ostrich fart against a gatling gun with the only thing to do being to stick our heads in the ground and hope it all blows over.

VallarMorghulis · 27/02/2017 13:32

They can actually @Motheroffourdragons, it's already happening for people who are not exercising treaty rights. At the moment they are targetting homeless people, but knowing the way the Home Office apply the rules it's all very worrying.

@Mistigri yes it is, and I am quite upset at the lack of outrage in the country about this. How can people be so anti-Trump and not see that the same is happening here?

The only thing that is slightly reassuring me is that the EU 27 seem to have our back. We'll see...

HashiAsLarry · 27/02/2017 13:34

In all honesty I don't think they can kick any EU person out until we have finally left.
Sadly I think they can if they don't comply with the self sufficiency thing. Other EU countries are a lot more hot on this - Finland I know is very on top of it. Though normally I think that's at the beginning end rather than failing to have the humanity to realise people may self support for years then become SAHMs/carers/etc.

VallarMorghulis · 27/02/2017 13:34

This is a must-read:

www.freemovement.org.uk/briefing-legal-status-eu-citizens-uk/

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 13:39

I am a non working trailing spouse in an EU country. Although I do have health insurance.

If you're in a legal partnership and have access to your country's social health insurance scheme you should be OK for the time being. The main EU state health insurance schemes seem to allow coverage, via the working member of a household, for all other non-working members of that household. My DH was covered under my French secu number for some years, while he was a SAHD.

What happens after Mar 2019 is anyone's guess, although I personally am now v pessimistic. It's going to be complicated for anyone who does not personally qualify for permanent residence (the situation of non-working spouses will I think come down to individual country legislation).

howabout · 27/02/2017 13:49

For me tuition fees are only the tip of the iceberg wrt Lib / Dems. It was their policy to increase the personal allowance and take low waged people out of income tax. This was then paid for by, and used as the excuse note for, cutting targeted benefits via the tax credits system. Thus lots of single people with no responsibilities or encumbrances did very well at the expense of parents and the disabled and their carers. Then to even out the approach CB was cut for higher single earners.

Lib / Dem policies are ime so blinkered on protecting the rights of individuals equally that they completely disregard the fact that not everyone has equal earning capacity or responsibilities.

Re LH's 2010 options an issue by issue minority Government would have been far more transparent. The mess in policy and mismanagement of the last 6 years is because imo Con and Lib back benchers did not scrutinise anything as they would have been in danger of unpicking the coalition back room deals.

LurkingHusband · 27/02/2017 13:52

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/amber-rudd-its-the-end-of-freedom-of-movement-as-we-know-it-a3476461.html

Amber Rudd has promised the UK will see “the end of freedom of movement as we know it” under Theresa May’s Brexit strategy.

The home secretary told ITV’s Peston on Sunday that the current right to travel and work in different EU countries will not remain when Britain leaves the EU.

(contd) ...