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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 26/02/2017 11:16

But what happened to the hamster???

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 11:38

< in the interests of full disclosure , I had quiche & fries for brunch yesterday. Mmm Smile licks lips >

Howabout I'm another Sadiq fan, looks like he's doing well for London - but I thought he was finding common cause with the SNP over Brexit terms. A falling out ?

There is considerable pride in Germany about their recovery from post-WW2 rubble, but the fledgling country was given superb guidance by the US and UK - which to be fair they also praise very highly.
The most benevolent occupation ever
I only wish the UK in particular had been as keen on supporting UK manufacturing post-Ww2, but that has always seemed to be looked down on, good enough for foreigners and plebs, but "not for gentlemen"

The Uk received Marshall Aid, like Germany, but Germany used its share for rebuilding infrastructure and industry, whereas the UK mostly wasted theirs on a large military and ill-conceived adventures, all to try to hang onto its empire.

My first contract, on a hiking group along the Rhine, I met an Opel retiree who told me how right after the war ended, he & other former workers - those who had survived - turned up and started getting the factories ready to produce.
He said most were weak with hunger so the shifts were slow, with several workers collapsing. However, they were determined to rebuild, as a kind of expiation for those who had ruined their country and its name.
After a few months, there was more food and they could work properly. They continued to focus single-mindedly on manufacturing, because they felt that was the only secure future in a bewildering new world.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 11:46

UKIP hasn't really progressed from "BNP in blazers"

I think they have served the pupose of Banks, Murdoch, Dacre & co, so I expect them to dissolve soon with a whinge and a whimper.

Banks new party, if he decides May is not doing enough, may be a far more damgerous animal

However, UKIP can't even organise properly for 2 byelection seats, let alone 650 seats in a GE
Also, the way their support is distributed across the country means that under FPTP

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 11:47

Blimey, censored again !

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 11:48

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/advanced-swingometer-mapp_

How FPTP protects us from UKIP__
FPTP is brutal to parties whose vote is evenly spread around the country.

Scenarios using the Yougov swingometer:

  1. If UKIP reach 25% they only get 17 seats Con 301, Lab 236
  2. UKIP can get more votes than Lab & Con, but still be far behind in seats UKIP 31% only get 83 seats ! Con 26% 243 seats , Lab 26% 214 seats
  3. UKIP on 36% are largest party with 200 seats, when Lab & Con each get 26% Con 173, Lab 175
Peregrina · 26/02/2017 12:08

Hablo español y tengo muchos amigos que hablan español.

BTW Heseltine was always a bit of a rebel. He once swung the mace - I forget why - might have been over Westland Helicopters. As has been said, a different breed of Tory than today, not without principles.

howabout · 26/02/2017 12:09

Quiche with chips is the only way to go Bigchoc Smile

Interesting look at UKIP and FPTP. The contrast with the SNP in Scotland is fascinating. They went from a 20% vote share in 2010 (6 seats) to a 50% vote share in 2015 (56 of 59 seats). There was lots of tactical voting from Tories (17% to 15%) and Lib / Dems (19% to 7%) aimed at getting rid of as many Labour MPs as possible, coupled with a collapse in the Labour vote from 42% to 24%.

Whatever the view on Brexit surely we can all agree that the Tories appear to have seen off the danger of their vote share being hollowed out by UKIP and it is now up to Labour to do likewise.

Lest I get an earbashing from NS I am not suggesting SNP are UKIP lite any more than Sadiq was yesterday. However I think he very successfully pulled the tiger's tail yesterday and provoked exactly the sort of reaction Scottish Labour need to promote federalism and regionalism as a much better option than nationalism.

whatwouldrondo · 26/02/2017 12:13

Friends who can speak and write Mandarin fluently (all 20000 characters) have a quite amusing time observing the random words and profanities that people get tattooed on their bodies. One is putting together a book, together with another one on the random words Chinese people chooses for their western names. I prefer the more random ones than the profanities though eg "brush" tattooed on their someone's coccyx or calling yourself Margerine.

Not sure if Farage, who personally seems to prefer to consort with German and French partners and has zilch experience of trade, understands that whilst some things get lost in translation, as much in the US as anywhere (there are songs about it), the world is richer for having diverse cultures and perspectives and that those who have open minds and make the effort to bridge the gap can have infinitely more enriched, and prosperous, lives.

Or that European languages, compared to Mandarin, Cantonese, Arabic, etc. have more in common than divides them......

whatwouldrondo · 26/02/2017 12:24

Tories like Heseltine and Clarke always had my respect, I can cope with disagreeing with people if they talk sense. The problem is that they always shared the benches with people like Peter Lilley who would not understand common sense if it came and hit him on the head. I had personal experience of years of his nonsense and inability to comprehend even the simplest of issues back in the 80s/90s when he was at the DTI. I can't believe he is still around, just goes to show that in the Tory party, and possibly politics in general, you can get away with talking rubbish for decades......

Another fan of Sadiq, I didn't vote for him but if I had / have the chance to vote for him again I would. He would almost certainly return with a greater mandate from the centre at an election.

lalalonglegs · 26/02/2017 12:35

I'm hoping for one successful term as London mayor for Sadiq and then he rides into WM on a white horse to sort out the Labour Party after their (seemingly inevitable) pounding in the 2020 election.

whatwouldrondo · 26/02/2017 12:35

When some weirdo comes and sits at your table and you try to pretend he isn't there in the hope he will go away

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/nigel-farage-dines-donald-trump-washington/

whatwouldrondo · 26/02/2017 12:37

I want Chukka on that white horse too

Bolshybookworm · 26/02/2017 12:54

Arabic is good for swearing, they don't do it by halves!

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 13:10

Misti Your link was a fascinating insight into what May could be planning:

He thinks May is blinded by her greatest triumph in 2014 when she did successfully cherry-pick, for the UK as an EU member, when also she was not under desperate time pressure

  • and the Lisbon Treaty specifically allowed what she did then

Outside the EU is totally different, the UK would be just another "third" country to the EU

Her new pal Trump certainly won't accept cherry-picking.
Uk exporters will have to fit into the US system and be bound by their system of adjudication of disputes

ElenaGreco123 · 26/02/2017 13:32

I am a late conversion to Sadiq. Ashamed to say I just did not know him until he got Goldsmith-ed.

I am bit scared of white horses, as it always reminds me of Governor Horthy riding into Budapest on a white horse in November 1919. It all led to white terror and the ascendancy of fascism. I can't believe the Allies never tried him.
Horthy's biggest fan is now in the White House www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/sebastian-gorka-trump-bio-profile-2017-2
I really do not we quite understand what weirdos surround Trump.

SwedishEdith · 26/02/2017 13:53

Robert Mercer: the big data billionaire waging war on mainstream media

Really interesting article (and frightening) although nothing we've not discussed on here plenty of times. It's just this is actual evidence.

One extract - of course, there were not bots on mn, not at all Hmm.

"Sam Woolley of the Oxford Internet Institute’s computational propaganda institute tells me that one third of all traffic on Twitter before the EU referendum was automated “bots” – accounts that are programmed to look like people, to act like people, and to change the conversation, to make topics trend. And they were all for Leave. Before the US election, they were five-to-one in favour of Trump – many of them Russian. Last week they have been in action in the Stoke byelection – Russian bots, organised by who? – attacking Paul Nuttall."

Peregrina · 26/02/2017 14:56

I am not sure that all those postings done of Paul Nuttall at Agincourt, the Crusades, Iwo Jima and other places were done by bots of any national origin. I think they were done by real live people taking the mickey out of him, as he well deserved.

LurkingHusband · 26/02/2017 15:05

We should also bear in mind that we've been fundamentally involved in European politics since at least 1085 or so.

By then, we'd been involved for the best part of 1,000 years.

One of Alfred (the Great)s defining moments was visiting Rome as a child.

And Constantine (the Great - is there a pattern emerging) became emperor while stationed at Eboracum. Or - to give it it's Norse name - York.

SwedishEdith · 26/02/2017 15:15

No, the Agincourt etc type were for laughs - not something the right seem to cope well with.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 15:51

Swedish ShockShock"one third of all traffic on Twitter before the EU referendum was automated “bots” ..... And they were all for Leave."

BigChocFrenzy · 26/02/2017 15:55

There are some obvious "wetware" Russians on Guardian Comment, stridently supporting Brexit, Trump & Putin - Putin support is particularly grovelling.

They may have English usernames, but they omit the definite & indefinite articles, as in the Russian speech pattern.
I presume many Russian posters are not so obvious

woman12345 · 26/02/2017 16:27

I learnt Urdu in Dudley. Can say 1,2,3,4,5 cauliflower, (eck, do , teen char panche gobi Grin)
not for gentlemen that's the bottom line. Finally, snobbery about real work might have done for this island, I didn't know that Britain got Marshall plan money too. What the heck did they spend it on?

howabout · 26/02/2017 16:27

A bit of perspective on where the Guardian are coming from. Tactical Lib/Dem voting to get into coalition with Labour in 2010 - that went well then Shock

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/30/the-liberal-moment-has-come

Kaija · 26/02/2017 16:39

I honestly don't know what to make of the anti-Nuttall Russian bot activity. Putin turning his attention to keeping Corbyn in to suppress opposition to hard Brexit? Or just thrown in to add to the confusion? Does anyone have any ideas?

I have been amazed and intrigued by the pro-Trump, pro-Putin, pro-Brexit worldview that has been emerging over the past year on here and elsewhere. I wouldn't have imagined 12 months ago that there was a distinct group of Leavers who also supported Putin and Trump floating around on very mainstream boards like this one.

In a way the idea that there is some Kremlin-originated co-ordination to at least the core of this sort of posting is the simplest and least shocking. The alternative would be that there is a spontaneous and extreme peeling away of the fundamental values that we have come to take for granted over decades. But can it really be that there are significant numbers of people in this country who would find a regime like Putin's admirable? Who would be relaxed about the repeal of domestic violence laws for example, and the serial assassinations of dissidents?

woman12345 · 26/02/2017 16:43

Petition for Shiromini Satkunarajah aged 20, 3 months from completing her degree, is now in detention centre. Petition is up from about 10,000 last night to nearly 15,000.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exception-student-deportation-three-months-before-graduation-sri-lanka-home-office-amber-rudd-a7600511.html
www.change.org/p/amber-rudd-mp-stop-shiromini-getting-deported-she-is-three-months-away-from-completing-a-degree