To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

No one said that they did Broken

I don't think anyone had a 'reason' for wanting to stay or leave. For most of us, I imagine, it was a nuanced vote based on 'which is best.'

I don't think those who voted to stay in the EU did so in the belief that everything in the EU was sunny and wonderful; I don't think those of us who voted to leave thought everything about the EU was dire and awful.

For me, there were a number of considerations and one of those considerations was that, due to the high levels of immigration from some EU member countries, this then limited the immigration (in areas we actually need) from other countries.

due to the high levels of immigration from some EU member countries, this then limited the immigration (in areas we actually need) from other countries.

What makes you think that? Which areas do you mean?

I was a staunch remainer, but am now on the fence, primarily because of the intolerant, hectoring, ridiculing comments made by some remainers on other Mumsnet threads, which have led me to research the concerns of leavers more.

It's more complex than I thought, but I do know now we can only attempt to mitigate the effects of globalisation if we are out of the EU, and I have a problem with the voices of people, who have real concerns about the effect of globalisation and the EU, being dismissed.

But I worry that we will lose the protections that the EU gives workers, in terms of rights. They can be eroded further by businesses here.

I also agree that some leavers are racist, but clearly not loads of them, otherwise UKIP would have been more successful in mainstream politics than they are.

For me, there were a number of considerations and one of those considerations was that, due to the high levels of immigration from some EU member countries, this then limited the immigration (in areas we actually need) from other countries.

But why would we limit immigration in areas we actually need? Non-EU migration is and has historically been higher than EU migration. fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Indeed, which has led to the population of the country shooting upwards. We are very densely populated, our infrastructure is poor and the effects of overcrowding are having an impact in all sorts of places and spaces (and I don't just mean the usually trotted out NHS waiting lists and school places. I think one reason for poor mental health is because we are overcrowded.)

Penelope I feel the opposite: that workers' rights will ultimately improve after leaving the EU :)

but I do know now we can only attempt to mitigate the effects of globalisation if we are out of the EU, and I have a problem with the voices of people, who have real concerns about the effect of globalisation and the EU, being dismissed.

This is interesting. Can you explain a bit more please? What effects of globalisation? and how will being out of the EU help?

The utter arrogance of Blaire lecturing brexiteers that they didn't understand the issues is exactly the reason people voted leave.

Make no mistake the vote to leave was about immigration concerns that had been ignored and minimised by who??? Blaire..amongst others

He should hang his head in shame.

I voted remain by the way.

Indeed, which has led to the population of the country shooting upwards. We are very densely populated, our infrastructure is poor and the effects of overcrowding are having an impact in all sorts of places and spaces (and I don't just mean the usually trotted out NHS waiting lists and school places. I think one reason for poor mental health is because we are overcrowded.)

But non-EU migration can be controlled but hasn't been, how will Leave change that? Non-EU migration has been mainly 'students' and people joining their families rather than necessary workers according to that source.

For me formerbabes comment has summed up why it pointless trying to convince Leavers to 'change their mind'

You simply can't argue against someone who freely admits they chose fucking the economy over preventing things that probably were never even going to happen.

I've long said Leavers don't seem to care about the consequences of leaving as long as we no longer have to wear the EU badge- Only time will tell if the really mean that or if it is actually the case that they don't care unless it starts to affect them personally.

Jelly, it's in the interests of global businesses to have a workforce that can move unhindered to where the jobs are. With a portable workforce, this has the effect of depressing wages in those countries.

However, this obviously has implications for those who cannot move due to families and local ties. They cannot necessarily move for the work, and they will also be bringing home a smaller pay packet due to an oversupply of labour. This has been a good thing for business, but a bad thing for the working class as a whole.

By coming out of the EU, and freedom of movement, we cannot stop business moving factories abroad, however most of our economy is no longer based on manufacturing anyway.

With fewer workers to serve the businesses that remain, this forces the wages, that employees can demand, up. The supply and demand dynamics of business apply to the workforce too.

Business has no incentive to pay more if they can get workers to accept less money.

Voted leave. Would still vote leave, as would all the leavers I know.

Tony Bliar, now the self appointed spokesman for remain? Hilarious! This only serves to enhance my belief that it was the right decision.

Thanks for explaining Penelope.

I get your point but I think that the EU protected wages and workers rights.

I don't think any deals we're going to have to do with the US or wider world will help protect wages or prevent global businesses abusing workers.

I agree with Penelope - can't put it any better than this.

Jelly, realistically there are not going to be people moving from those countries, in the volumes we have from the EU now, to do incredibly low paid work. Skilled work, yes, but not work which has been done traditionally by our working classes.

Crossing an ocean for work is hugely different to crossing the Channel. And being out of the EU does worry me in terms of workers rights, but that is something the electorate can demand from the government. Perhaps unions may feel they can have some sway again. It's about redistributing the supply and demand power back to the workers, and away from businesses.

Perhaps unions may feel they can have some sway again. It's about redistributing the supply and demand power back to the workers, and away from businesses.

The Tories and the right wing press have been demonising unions for the last 30 years. The Tories will always defend business and never workers.

Its not just manufacturing moving abroad, its the City. My department is moving all its operations this year. Its easy as we already have footprint in many European cities and we employ a youngish highly skilled and educated mostly non Uk workforce who can move with the job and do not want to stay in the UK now. Its not just the immigrants leaving, they are actually taking the jobs with them. We are all higher rate tax payers now leaving the UK, but I understand the poor low skilled who voted leave have a genius plan.... or not on how to compensate for loss of revenue.

The UK have been mainly voting against more worker rights in the EU actually, but obviously Teresa May and the Tories have always championed the working classes

With fewer workers to serve the businesses that remain, this forces the wages, that employees can demand, up. The supply and demand dynamics of business apply to the workforce too

Yes, that all makes sense. But what if there are fewer businesses overall, and fewer jobs in the businesses that are left? Surely, then, the effects are cancelled out?

When we leave the EU, some businesses will leave too. That will mean some job losses. That will decrease the overall tax take, which will impact on government spending. This may lead to further job losses, and a further decrease in the tax take. In the meantime, rising prices will increase costs for business, while impacting on consumer spending. If consumer spending falls, businesses will be hit further and will need to reduce their costs, probably by shedding more staff.

Jelly, realistically there are not going to be people moving from those countries, in the volumes we have from the EU now, to do incredibly low paid work. Skilled work, yes, but not work which has been done traditionally by our working classes.

The figures show that only 21% of non-EU migrants (of which there were more than EU migrants) had actual jobs to come to. Incredibly low paid to you may be a fortune to someone who has no income or prospects in another country.

And haven't we got the minimum wage to stop wages falling too low?

It's about redistributing the supply and demand power back to the workers, and away from businesses.

I find this really interesting as it 's the complete opposite to what I think is happening with Brexit. Murdoch putting all his media behind Leave - why?

When we leave the EU, some businesses will leave too.

Businesses are already moving workers. 2,000 jobs lost with USB and HSBC alone.

Not minimum wage jobs either.

(I don't think Murdoch is particularly behind Leave. The Times wasn't - and the Sun wavers all the time. The Mail and the Express are the biggest Leave newspapers.)

It's about redistributing the supply and demand power back to the workers, and away from businesses.
This is just the stuff of pure fantasy. You must know this.

Incredibly low paid to you may be a fortune to someone who has no income or prospects in another country.

Quite. Hence why, allowing poorer countries to join the EU was never going to be a fair system. Freedom of movement only works when countries have a comparable standard of living and economies. Levels of migration between France, Germany and the UK are much of a muchness, however, migration between the UK and Ee countries is much more one sided.

Yes, Jelly, and that's part of the problem. If the jobs that move overseas when we leave are relatively highly paid, the UK government will lose the taxes that those workers would have paid too. And if the government has less money, that will impact on all of us.

How fucking annoying is it that every thread about Brexit gets reported and moved here.

It disgusts me that people can't even bear to see it mentioned among the trivia in AIBU given it's probably the biggest thing that will happen in our lifetime.

Fuckwits.