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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Mistigri · 11/02/2017 17:57

Hate is shit wherever it comes from

I'm struggling to think of an example of the regular EU posters on here posting hate speech.

I'm British and I really do fucking hate brexiters, with a very few exceptions, where it's clear that an anti-EU stance has been reached after serious thought about the implications (and the possible solutions for the negative impacts). I honestly can't think of a single one on MN (possibly tiggytape though not sure if she's a leaver or not) though I do know some in RL, mostly people associated with the flexcit group, who at least had a fucking plan.

99% of the leaver posts on MN are either clueless or racist or both.

Mistigri · 11/02/2017 17:59

plenty of British people have some string ideas about french or German politics

Lots of Brexiters with very strong views on Le Pen, if Twitter and UK newspaper comment sections are to be believed. A proportion of these are likely to be bots or fake accounts, but I think it probably reflects underlying support for extreme right wing parties among the more fervent brexiters.

WrongTrouser · 11/02/2017 18:01

I'm British and I really do fucking hate brexiters, with a very few exceptions

99% of the leaver posts on MN are either clueless or racist or both

I'm struggling to think of an example of the regular EU posters on here posting hate speech

I don't think they do either, but you just have.

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2017 18:01

Mike Smithson ‏*@MSmithsonPB*
ComRes Indy S Mirror poll finds that one in eight (12%) 2015 Labour voters now say that they will vote for the Lib Dems

Information on this poll just been published...

Sounds like there is interesting stuff in it.

OP posts:
birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/02/2017 18:02

Ok, so you understand the sentiment behind: This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief.

but the important thing to say here is Hate is shit wherever it comes from

??

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 18:06

99% of the leaver posts on MN are either clueless or racist or both.

Yep!
No hate from the good Remainer folk at all.
None.
Nothing at all to see here...

WrongTrouser · 11/02/2017 18:06

How can someone hate the vast majority of over 17 million of their fellow country men and women? I just can't get my head around that notion Sad

Kaija · 11/02/2017 18:06

One in 8 is a lot. Big increase in membership too.

Bearbehind · 11/02/2017 18:11

How can someone hate the vast majority of over 17 million of their fellow country men and women? I just can't get my head around that notion

Because, as Remainers see it, those 17m have sold the rest of us down the river with no fucking clue of the potential outcome.

Can you really not see why emotions might be running high?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 11/02/2017 18:12

No one has ever said that remainers never hate or make nasty comments

There was a whole fucking thread with hate in the title for goodness sake

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 18:13

My DH had a row with someone the other day, Brexit related. Not that he hates the woman, it's just that she was the sort of rather small minded person who doesn't really think all that deeply. He wished he hadn't had a row now, but I have just said to him that she could see he felt strongly and might just go away to think. He wasn't rude to her.

I keep thinking of Hilter's Secretary, Traudl Junger and the film Downfall. If my own mother had been born in Germany rather than England - that could easily have been her. The parallels were quite uncanny, the actress even looked quite like my mother. Both were pleasant young women, with very similar backgrounds but rather innocent, and not brought up to question.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 11/02/2017 18:15

SOME!!!! SOME!!!

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL YOU PEOPLE USE THE WORD SOME!!

Some remainers are racist arseholes

Some leavers are racist arseholes

Etc etc

WrongTrouser · 11/02/2017 18:16

And if your values and beliefs are such that you can get to a state where you feel able to declare that you hate the vast majority of more than 17 million people, rather than feeling that, if things have come to this, then perhaps you need to reconsider your stance, then it's probably not massively surprising that you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of people who want to leave the EU, to understand that they voted (on average) for just as well thought through, selfless, and forward looking reasons as you and other people who voted remain.

If your politics is powered by hate (or make hate acceptable), you need to reconsider your stance.

Mistigri · 11/02/2017 18:16

No hate from the good Remainer folk at all.

You were talking specifically about "hate" from EU citizens posting on here and being mean to poor snowflake brexiters.

But I'm a British citizen - a very pissed off one, whose work and family life is about to be permanently changed. And apparently, being British means I get to have an opinion.

I've gone beyond sympathising with brexiters. Go and post something sensible on the NI thread, for example, that shows that you have thought about this, that you understand what Brexit means for customs procedures and supply chains and cross border trade and animal movements. Then I'll listen, and what's more I will take you seriously if you have something intelligent to say.

But coming on here to moan about EU citizens having the temerity to have political views - and then expecting to be taken seriously? Lol

TheElementsSong · 11/02/2017 18:18

well thought through, selfless, and forward looking reasons

Sure, happy to accept that (although I disagree with them, of course) but I'm not ever going to include This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief. in that category, if that is OK with you.

Bearbehind · 11/02/2017 18:19

to understand that they voted (on average) for just as well thought through, selfless, and forward looking reasons as you and other people who voted remain.

The problem is, we've yet to see any of those mythical 'well thought through, selfless and foward looking reasons' even after all this time.

It always has been, and continues to be nothing more than unicorns and rainbows.

unicornsIlovethem · 11/02/2017 18:19

A lot of people on the thread were born in Britain, live in Britain (or even England) have done so for generations and still are unhappy about the referendum result, and the subsequent tea-party shift of the Conservative party.

The first time I could vote was 1997. I remember staying up all night giddy with hope. Even with the total disaster that the Labour Party became and then the coalition government there was a sense of purpose and optimism which lingered - characterised as many have said by the opening ceremony for the London Olympics.

I feel that has taken a knock since the referendum and has been replaced by fear, uncertainty and division. That's why it feels to me to be an unfamiliar country.

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 18:20

I didn't realise that leavers won the right of hate when they 'won the vote' Hmm

I don't hate all leavers. I do hate people who suggest I and others are not valid people because of an accident of birth. I hold those people with the highest contempt.

Also, 17m weren't exclusively British votes. I'll just leave Gisela Stuart as a fine example of that.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 18:20

Btw, if we are talking about non brit expressing their opinion on Brexit, I am still angry at the idea that people in Ireland, Malta and Cyprus could vote in the Brexit referendum.
Why?? There are not British. They are not living in Britain. But somehow their point of view was important enough to count.
I

unicornsIlovethem · 11/02/2017 18:24

Especially that their vote was more important than eu residents in the uk and 16-18 year olds who have to live with this mess long after a lot of the brexiters have died.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 18:26

But I'm a British citizen - a very pissed off one, whose work and family life is about to be permanently changed. And apparently, being British means I get to have an opinion.

Same for me.

When May and Johnson finally managed to make statements about Trump's Muslim country ban, the best that Johnson could manage was that it didn't apply to British passport holders. This was after Mo Farah's short statement spelling out the reality had showed up their lack of compassion and indifference. I took this to mean that they were basically happy with Trump's ban. We then saw a farcical situation in that a Norwegian ex-Prime Minister got stopped, because he'd been to Iran.

On the other hand, it's good that he was stopped, because he could tell it like it is - some poor middle easterner would probably just be ignored.

WrongTrouser · 11/02/2017 18:27

Elements That is fine with me, I make no attempt to defend that comment - more division does not help any of us.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/02/2017 18:27

You do make me laugh Wrong.

The Brexit Arms is full of insults especially about lefties and liberals but I have never seen you pick any of them up on it. A poster thinks it beggars belief that immigrants and their families complain about brexit and that's totally cool but a remainer says something you disagree with and it's Shock Such hatred and Division!

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 18:28

You were talking specifically about "hate" from EU citizens posting on here and being mean to poor snowflake brexiters.

No.
No I wasn't.

But I'm a British citizen - a very pissed off one, whose work and family life is about to be permanently changed. And apparently, being British means I get to have an opinion.

Nope.
Didn't say that either.

I've gone beyond sympathising with brexiters. Go and post something sensible on the NI thread, for example

I don't post on the NI thread because I don't think it's my place to.
I read it, I absorb what the feeling/fears/hopes are, but I have no place there.

But coming on here to moan about EU citizens having the temerity to have political views - and then expecting to be taken seriously? Lol

Once again, I explicitly said that I consider all people who have chosen to live, work and make their lives in Britain are part of the fabric of our society and perfectly free to express their views (whatever they may be) in our free & liberal country.

What I object to is being called all the names and shit that are thrown out - because of the way I voted in a free country.

I object to British citizens doing this as much as I object to anyone doing it.

As I said, hate is shit wherever it comes from.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 18:30

Maybe trying was trying to articulate her frustration with immigrants who settle in UK ostensibly because they identify with its values, enjoy its culture - then denigrate it when a large number of fellow UK dwellers who thet have lived amongst, hold a different opinion? It isn't a fully thought out position I agree as it should have been expanded to include UK born citizens too, who are dissing their homeland and fellow citizens. But, things do get posted in the heat of the moment and maybe we should move on. Its a Saturday night.Smile