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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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BigChocFrenzy · 11/02/2017 13:46

Oops, must proofread better. Blush I or iPad substituted HoC for HoL
Of course HoL can't reverse A50 but must scrutinise it.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/02/2017 13:57

There used to be "D" notices, officially to protect national security, but govts always take that to mean protecting a govt from embarassment

The EU knows - probably better than Davies, BoJo & co - the 3 possible options of the UK.

Remain
Norway type soft Brexit
WTO Brexit

Unless the UK concedes FOM, it will be WTO.
So, no big secret to protect, maybe trying to avoid losing a few byelections because of angry Remainers.

However, agreement on right to remain for each others citizens should be quite easy to achieve
There is also a good chance of an EU "citizenship" which entitles UK FOM within the E27, so that should help Remainers who want to work abroad.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 14:18

The court was not being asked to stop May doing something she knew to be illegal but was asked to to decide what the law should be.

I have to say I am confused with the idea that the Courts in some way decide or make the law.
The Cours is not deciding anything at all. They are merely confirming what the law is saying in the first place.
So yes very good to confirm the role of the devolved assemblies (even though there is more things going on there) etc...
But what the Courts have basically said is that using the Henry VII powers were unlawful. They haven't changed any rule or laws. They have told TM that she shouldn't do what she intended to do because it is against the law, one that has always been there.
If she had had any doubt about it (despite the numerous lawyers that around her and the fact she ought to know the law, such like any other citizen) then she should have been the one to ask the Courts.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 14:22

lala unfortunately not news. It's something that has been raised in one of these threads a few weeks ago.

There was also something about asking newspapers to pay if they were taken to court, regardless of the outcome, in effect forcing newspapers to either close down for printing things that could be upsetting to some people or to refrain from printing anything controversial.
Not sure if this has made it into a law yet.

But yes, one small step after the other. So that few people notice and no one actually makes a fuss about it (or ensure it's easily forgotten about).

Not dissimilar to what has happened in Germany. Small pieces of legislation that taken separately don't look too bad until you can't say NO anymore.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 14:25

She ought to know the Law, as an MP since it's Parliament which makes the Law.

Admittedly, judges have to interpret the law when it's not clear and even the best drafting can't stop unforeseen ambiguities.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 14:25

And current standards of drafting are not great.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 14:26

Red Stripe I'm sorry, you have got the wrong end of the stick. Please read the judgment.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 14:29

Also, any Act of Parliament to reform the House of Lords would have to be voted on by the House of Lords, who would in turn have to be controlled by the threat of creating new peers.

HardcoreLadyType · 11/02/2017 14:44

Well, to say that the far right are already in power in Britain is hardly a rational assertion, is it?

The assertion was that the hard right were in power. Which they are. The far right and the hard right are not the same.

Fawful · 11/02/2017 15:17

"This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief."
you can feel the disgust ('full of') and the outrage that we haven't been somehow silenced ('beggars belief'). And that is who May is trying to pander to when she doesn't want to give assurances over our rights.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 15:20

cecile I would be happy to have misunderstood but I can't see the difference between what I am saying and what peregrina said??

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 15:24

fawful also if you have an eu family member then your opinion shouldn't count eitherConfused. If she wasn't long dead I'd have assumed my gran was on here Grin

Mistigri · 11/02/2017 15:40

I wonder if trying would also like to silence British citizens who were disenfranchised.

This "we won, shut up" attitude disgusts me. These people want us to believe that they are in favour of democracy but they can't handle the fact that opposition and protest are part of the very democracy they claim to support? Wanting the silence the opposition is what fascists do. If you don't like being called a neo-nazi then stop behaving like one.

mathanxiety · 11/02/2017 15:41

RedStripe, that is not how the common law works, and it is not how the constitution works in the UK. Judges decide which, if any, precedent applies. The process is one of continuous adaptation and refinement.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 15:46

Peregrina is correct, it doesn't mean Henry VIII clauses have anything to do with Miller.

Mistigri · 11/02/2017 15:48

I have to say I am confused with the idea that the Courts in some way decide or make the law.
The Cours is not deciding anything at all. They are merely confirming what the law is saying in the first place.

It's more complex than that. Courts don't make law, but they do interpret it, based on written texts, case law and custom (where laws are unwritten, as our constitution is). This means that the interpretation of the law tends to evolve as new judgements add to case law.

Where cases reach the Supreme Court, it's usually because the law as applied to that particular case is not clear and needs to be interpreted by legal experts. This is an iterative process, as the different "layers" of the legal system give their opinions.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 11/02/2017 15:53

Taken me ages to catch up

Agree with tennant re moderate voices

This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief.

Yep busted Sad the 48% who voted no to brexit all fall into the above catagory

lalalonglegs · 11/02/2017 15:56

Going back to the proposed new espionage law which would see journalists (and whistleblowers) potentially jailed for publishing leaked information, I can't help viewing this through the prism of Brexit. The UK is about to enter into negotiations with the EU27 which the government is determined to keep completely closed and secret. This will, imo, be impossible and leaks are inevitable. So the government now wants to prosecute anyone who leaks/publishes information including foreign nationals who were not in Britain at the time. The legislation could potentially apply to anyone involved with the EU side of the negotiations, for example, even though they would not be under British jurisdiction. I rely on the posters with greater legal expertise than mine to correct me but that seems to mean we would try to extradite suspects and/or arrest them if they decided to visit the UK.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/02/2017 16:55

This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief.

I don't understand at all what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify, what 'beggars belief'?

mrsquagmire · 11/02/2017 17:15

I did wonder what sort of person would say a thing like that.

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 17:29

I'm not condoning the comment, but I can understand some of the sentiment behind it.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone chooses to move to Britain and make their life here then they're as much a part of the British fabric as anyone else is.
Perfectly free in this free & liberal country to express their disagreement with the way it's governed, vote however they want, protest about anything they want etc etc.

However, there's something a bit off as a fellow citizen, to then hear the people who have chosen to make a life here hold over 17 million British people in such contempt. Using such words as xenophobes, racists, stupid, thick, etc etc just because they voted to Leave the EU.
It's a free country - people chose to vote how they voted for myriad reasons on either side; hate is shit whatever side it comes from, and it's not good.

Mistigri · 11/02/2017 17:38

So as a British citizen, it's fine for me to think that 17 million of my fellow citizens are either a bit thick, a bit racist, or too old/too rich to be personally affected by brexit? ;)

I exaggerate slightly for effect, but the implication here is that British citizens have the right to hold and express views that other residents cannot.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 11/02/2017 17:40

Nope, still not getting it.

There are immigrants here (and friends/families of immigrants) who don't support Brexit. This is incredible!

What is so incredible here? What exactly 'beggars belief'?

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 17:49

the implication here is that British citizens have the right to hold and express views that other residents cannot.

No, that wasn't the implication that I was making, but I'm not going to get into pointless semantic battles.

Hate is shit wherever it comes from - that's my main point.
Hate from people who voted the 'right' way is just as shit as hate from people who voted the 'wrong' way is just as shit as hate from British citizens is just as shit as hate from any other type of citizen.

I couldn't give a toss who someone is, or where they're from, how rich or poor they are - there are horrible people and twats from across the spectrum just as there are decent and kind people.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 17:50

Well I have to say, as non brit, here ar few places where I will actually express my full opinion of British politics. (MN being one of them, DH another but not my IL for example)
Yes in some ways I don't think that it would be my place. After all it's your country, not mine and even. Though that vote has/will have. Huge effect on my life, if I had wanted to have a inence in it, I should have taken the citizenship. That has always been the only reason why I considered it in the past.
And yes it is crap not to be able to have a say.

However, even if I don't express it in RL, and even if other EU citizens weren't expressing their POV in RL, i can assure you that I and others would still have a very strong opinion on the subject.
Just like it seems that plenty of British people have some string ideas about french or German politics even though they don't even live in the country.