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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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LurkingHusband · 11/02/2017 09:20

Did anyone else watch the ever effervescent Lucy Worsley examining the Glorious revolution

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08cgp55

Was it just me, or does anyone else feel that there could just as easily been a ticker along the bottom pointing out how history repeats itself ?

Notice the way the fear of "Catholic Europe" is whipped up to ensure the masses swallow the narrative of the ruling elite.

PattyPenguin · 11/02/2017 09:22

The Times story suggests to me that the Hard Brexiters may find their tactics (e.g. calling Remain supporters "traitors") will backfire. Is it really a good idea to villify and alienate a large proportion of the people who keep the economy going?

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 09:22

Has anyone watched the BBC documentary aired on Thursday?

"After Brexit: The Battle for Europe"

It was very good, definitely offered a big dose of perspective.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08dx4lz/this-world-after-brexit-the-battle-for-europe

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 09:29

A new poem from Michael Rosen:

Remember the Number 322
Remember the number
322
Three hundred and twenty two
That's the number of the MPs
who voted against guaranteeing EU citizens
the right to stay in the UK.
322
Three hundred and twenty two
elected representatives have said to their
neighbours, "If they come for you in the morning
I am one of those who has given all the power
needed for them to take you away."
You won't need to have done anything wrong,
you won't need to have broken any law.
All you need to be is 'European'
That's what 322 MPs think is wrong with you.
That's what 322 reasonable, rational MPs have done.
If they come for us in the morning
remember the 322.
Three hundred and twenty two

How many of those 322 will be wriggling and wriggling in 5 or ten year's time, saying, "It wasn't me, I wasn't one", but there it will be on record in Hansard?

unicornsIlovethem · 11/02/2017 09:34

Patty - I think it is important that we remember who is driving this so they can be held to account.

I voted remain and was upset by the result but thought there would be some thought given to how to bring the country together. Instead, the divisions 'traitor''stupid racist' etc are mounting up and I don't see how it can be overcome at the moment.

That is where I think tm's big failing has been - there has been no attempt to do anything other than appease the very hard right tories and everyone else including the JAMs are totally ignored or reviled.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 09:46

I don't really believe in anything that contains the words "democracy dictates"

I think maybe you are in the wrong profession.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 09:47

Absolutely unicorns. When the chips are down the hard right will look after themselves and TM will be cast aside with the rest of us.

Things do change - Thatcher won in 1987 with a very comfortable majority of 102, although down from 144. Ten years later they were wiped out with Blair getting a huge 179 majority, with some extremely high profile Tories getting the boot.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 09:47

Democracy dictates is a new oxymoron for me.

unicornsIlovethem · 11/02/2017 09:49

'Democracy dictates' is the same as 'the will of the people'. The people using it need to remember that the will of the people can change.

mrsquagmire · 11/02/2017 09:49

Thanks for that link Kaija, explains a lot, . The Express has this (attack on Remainers halfway down, sorry)
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/765996/BREXIT-Tory-Brexiteers-Iain-Duncan-Smith-Michael-Gove-Government-policy-EU-exit

The Telegraph has this:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/whatsapp-wars-brexiteers-row-number-messages-secret-chat-forum/

I thought it was the evil 48% who plotted?

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 10:07

Kaija thanks for that link.
Yes it expresses how I feel much better than I would ever have managed too. I'm still too angry about it all.

What has changed for me? Everything. I have fallen out of love with Britain over this and it no longer feels like home. These days when anyone asks me where I am from my heart sinks a little and I prepare myself for what might come.

YY to that. I Ve actually started lying when I meet people I don't know and will never see again, and say that I am both french and British. I don't want to have to explain.

One thing I would say though, I started to fall out of love before the referendum. All the rethoric against the immigrants and the way the country was going were visible before that. I have to say I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time. But I have been feeling unwelcome for a while now. Maybe it's because I live right in the middle of a Leave area?
So many decisions, from the new rules on immigration from TM to the decisions that, as EU citizens, we weren't entitled to the same benefits as other uk citizens (leaving me extremely vulnerable if DH was to die for example). The constant rethoric, comments about 'The Poles' etc etc

And yes this blogger is right, we can get away from it and 'go back home' or can we? When we have a spouse and children for who Britain is THEIR country. Can we really 'get away' and impose on them to leave everything they know? When said spouse would struggle to find a job in our 'own' country (whatever that means when you have been living here for 20 years...) because they don't speak the language? I couldn't even do the my job in my original country as regulations are different....

I am gutted at the lack of clarity and the fact that no one seems to care about the BRITISH spouse and children that are caught in the middle. I'm gutted for them because they certainly didn't ask for that.
I suppose this comes from what a Tory voter told me when we were talking about the change in the disability benefit ts system
'Oh well, yes some people will struggle when they shouldn't. But hey ho, you can't make an omelette wo breaking eggs' you know collateral damage and all that for the good of the country.

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 10:09

Just read that blog - as with most blogs, it was very self indulgent & subjective.

Kaija · 11/02/2017 10:13

Subjective, of course - she was giving her experience. But why self-indulgent?

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 10:14

I don't really believe in anything that contains the words "democracy dictates"

Please define democracy

If you go to Germany, they will tell you that a referendum isn't a democracy.
In Switzerland, they are using referendum all the time to take decisions and are now coming to the conclusion that referendums aren't the right way to do things and are actually morea of hindrance. Why? Because referendum after referendum, the results are split 51-49% and they reckon that such a result doesn't say anything at all. So a result like the one we've had would be considered as unrepresentative....

I am all for democracy. When it is actually a real democratic system that takes the POV of ALL people. When the results or way of doing elections aren't skewed to favour one party to another (see boundaries for the elections or the fact that even though plenty of people have voted for the greens or the LD, they are not represented in the HoC in that way).

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 10:15

Yep, why self indulgent?

And why subjective when so many EU citizens have just said in this thread that it reflects how they feel too?

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 10:19

Yy with falling out of love with Britain. TBH it took me a long time to warm to it despite it being the only home I ever had. I grew up being called a terrorist/bomber/stupid because of where my dm came from, of having a side in a battle I didn't understand and still don't fully. It never was my battle. And here we are again with the same rhetoric being aimed at large groups of people regardless of whether they agree/disagree/don't have a clue.

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 10:22

Why self indulgent?

Because her view of Britain is extremely insular & not at all reflective of Britain as a whole.

"...we volunteer our time to support parents and help them with baby slings, wraps and carriers, cloth nappies, car seat safety, breastfeeding support, baby-led weaning workshops, gentle and mindful parenting sessions..."

"...We were lucky though that our overall situation and my flexible working hours allowed us to home-educate our daughter..."

Very much living in a bubble - completely out of touch with the majority's experience of 'life in britain'.
That's fine, of course, we're enormously lucky to live in a country that is so diverse - but to then extrapolate her experience of 'what Britain was like before the Tories got in' to presume it was like that for everyone is self indulgent.

(Just my opinion, obviously).

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 10:22

I've found a little identifier of a remainer...spelling lose as looseSmile

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 10:23

How self indulgent of you to have an opinion SemiWink

HesterThrale · 11/02/2017 10:23

What is it with Gisela Stuart? Her position is so anomalous in so many ways. I don't understand her.

German-born UK resident, Labour MP, Brexiteer chair of Voteleave; she chaired the enquiry into the position of EU citizens in the U.K. which found that their rights should be protected, then voted against the amendment which would protect those rights...

How can anyone take her seriously as a politician any more?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/10/gisela-stuart-eu-citizens-vote-brexit-labour?client=safari

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 10:24

A BBC radio commentary a few weeks ago hit the nail on the head with a piece highlighting the differences in language and attitude to politics and life in general between Germany and the UK when it explained that in Germany ‘no’ actually means ‘no’, while in the UK ‘no’ means ‘ask me until I say yes’.

Aha...like leave means ask me till I say remain?

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 10:26

red
define democracy
Well democracy in governmental terms is government by the people for the people.

The problem is the definition of people. When all persons cease to be people then governmental democracy fails.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 10:27

semi it might not be your sperience of life in Britain but it certainly is the one of a lot of people on MN.
That's the one I have seen too from my small white town in the north of England (middle class in the middle of very deprived areas).

So maybe in a bubble but just as much in a bubble than all the British white middle class women I can see around me.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 10:27

For a short while I waited in vain for Cameron to thank the public for their valued input in this complex matter, and seeing that it was an advisory referendum (and yes, there was plenty talk about it being just that: advisory) the government would now contemplate how to move forward from here

She must have been otherwise engaged in her multi pursuits when he repeatedly announced that a leave vote would mean A50 being served the same day (lying hound that he turned out to be mind).

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 10:27

Has anyone watched the BBC doc about how shit it is in other countries within the EU?
(Not the metropolitan bubbles that most people are familiar with, but the forgotten parts of those countries)

Entirely reflective of what has happened in Britain - Britain is not the exception.