Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
boredofbrexit · 10/02/2017 22:20

pretty. no exiled scot had a vote in indyref.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 22:21

Commonweatlh citizens were also allowed to vote, which also includes those EU nationals of Cyprus and Malta, because they are in the Commonwealth. And UK citizens too, because we are still in the EU.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 22:26

Cocorcy, I too remember when the voting age was reduced, which enabled me to vote for the first time age 19 in 1970. I would imagine that quite a few posters on this thread weren't born then, so I think it depends on what time scale you are talking about.

For those who weren't around then - I recall the belief was that Harold Wilson thought he would collect extra votes, from people like me. He lost unexpectedly to Ted Heath.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 22:39

FWIW: I wasn't able to vote in the 1979 Scottish devolution vote as I was a few weeks too young, but my vote still contributed towards it being rejected due to the threshold requirement, as I was on the voting register (they claimed to allow for the "ineligible to vote" in the calculation Hmm), which I was happy about as I'd have voted No.

By 2014 I'd revised my viewpoint Wink

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 22:53

prettybird - do you detect a change in the Scottish desire for Independence?

Motheroffourdragons · 10/02/2017 22:57

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Motheroffourdragons · 10/02/2017 22:58

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Kaija · 10/02/2017 23:02

Marina Hyde on Murdoch, Gove and Trump is as brilliant as you would expect:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/10/rupert-murdoch-invisible-presence-dark-magic-michael-gove-donald-trump?CMP=sharebtnn_tw

Kaija · 10/02/2017 23:03

Marina Hyde on Murdoch, Gove and Trump is as brilliant as you would expect:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/10/rupert-murdoch-invisible-presence-dark-magic-michael-gove-donald-trump?CMP=sharebtnn_tw

Kaija · 10/02/2017 23:03

Marina Hyde on Murdoch, Gove and Trump is as brilliant as you would expect:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/10/rupert-murdoch-invisible-presence-dark-magic-michael-gove-donald-trump?CMP=sharebtnn_tw

prettybird · 10/02/2017 23:11

Peregrina - I'm not a good person to ask - I live in Glasgow seem to live in a Yes bubble and MN was one of the few places I come across No voters.

I did have one friend who I failed to persuade to vote Yes because age believed so strongly in the EU, despite me saying to her that the bigger risk was a future Conservative government Hmm. I did extract a promise from her that should Scotland be pulled out of the EU against her will, she would campaign with me for Independence. She is standing by that promise Smile and says that her dh and his sons are also going to do so Smile. She lives close to Edinburgh so I don't know if that is more widely indicative.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 23:22

I have seen a couple of die-hard No voters on MN now starting to express doubts as a result of the purposed hard Brexit. If you'd followed the strength of their Better Together arguments, that is a major change Smile

I also haven't seen the detail of the datasets behind the latest Indy poll but I did read a suggestion that it hadn't included the 15-17 year olds. Given that any vote won't take place for at least a year, they are an important part of the equation - that and the fact that the older demographic, who are supposed to have voted No, are quite literally dying off (as long as that doesn't include my 80 year old dad, as he wants to live to see Independence Grin fortunately he comes from a long lived familyWink)

StripeyMonkey1 · 11/02/2017 00:28

Bored I agree with this

^More energy should be spent now on putting pressure on the EU to reform, to a form more acceptable to all its member states - for dissent is widespread.
If that came about, maybe what it became would be acceptable to Leavers and Remainers both.
All this hate is wasted energy that could best be harnessed in more worthwhile and productive endeavours.
But we have to travel along the path to leave first, as democracy dictates^

Corcory · 11/02/2017 00:29

I'm not so sure there is the appetite for another indy referendum. I also can't really understand the attitude that Scotland should be in the EU at all costs when the biggest trading nation Scotland has is the rest of the UK by at least 4 times that of the EU.

StripeyMonkey1 · 11/02/2017 00:31

Although I would say that the UK path to leave should also be free to evolve over time.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 00:31

I don't really believe in anything that contains the words "democracy dictates"

StripeyMonkey1 · 11/02/2017 00:32

But I think the EU position also needs to change to respond both to the UK referendum but also the demands of a sizeable minority of other EU countries.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 00:54

Yes, I think the best idea all round would actually have been for the UK to stay in a reformed EU. Just not Cameron's idea of a reformed EU.

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2017 01:14

Paul Nuttalls of the UKIPs has been telling porkies again:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/ukip-leader-paul-nuttall-denies-lying-about-being-at-hillsborough-disaster?CMP=share_btn_tw
Ukip leader Paul Nuttall denies lying about being at Hillsborough disaster
Campaign groups express surprise that he never assisted in their fight to get justice for the 96 who died

With these questions being raised, Ukip gave the Guardian two statements on behalf of Nuttall, one from his father and another from a Ukip employee, saying that they and Nuttall had been at Hillsborough on the day of the disaster.

The statement from Nuttall’s father gave an incorrect age for his son at the time of the 1989 disaster.

and

Nuttall was 12 at the time of the disaster, and was a pupil at Savio high school in Bootle, Liverpool. One of his former teachers, a Roman Catholic priest, has told the Guardian that the school had believed it was aware of the identities of every boy who had been at Hillsborough, in order to help them through a difficult period, and that Nuttall was not among them.

A fellow pupil at the school who says he has been a friend of Nuttall for decades, said the Ukip leader had not once mentioned being there. “I have been very good friends with Paul for over 25 years,” he said, adding that during that time they had “never spoken” about Hillsborough.

and

Joe Benton, who was Labour MP for Bootle for 25 years, said that to the best of his knowledge Nuttall had not mentioned Hillsborough when he stood against him, for Ukip, in the 2005 and 2010 general elections.

The current Labour MP, Peter Dowd, said that as far as he was aware, Nuttall had not mentioned Hillsborough when he contested Bootle for Ukip in the 2015 general election.

and

Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough Families Support Group, said she was surprised that Nuttall had never offered to assist with their decades-long campaign to overturn the cover-up that led to Liverpool football fans being blamed for the 96 deaths.

“I haven’t heard anything about him being at the match,” she said. “Has he given a statement to the police, who have said they want to hear from everyone who was there? He can’t say he hasn’t heard that the police want to take statements from everyone who was in the Leppings Lane, as it’s been all over local and national media.”

You'd have to be pretty sick to lie over something like that.

What do we reckon given his track record...?
Sick Fuck or Truth Teller?
Hmm

OP posts:
Kaija · 11/02/2017 08:28

This is one of the best summaries of where we are and how we got here that I've seen: blog post from German audience member on Question Time a few weeks ago.

medium.com/@WibkeHott/an-eu-citizens-perspective-on-brexit-64cba14d82fc#.2fldq1pjv

HesterThrale · 11/02/2017 08:49

That's funny Kaija, I was also just about to post that blog. It's heartfelt and perceptive. She says she's 'fallen out of love with Britain over this', and I'm beginning to feel the same.

Kaija · 11/02/2017 08:53

Yes

Motheroffourdragons · 11/02/2017 08:55

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Kaija · 11/02/2017 09:01

Been wondering why the noise around hard Brexit seems to be drowning out all other options in the Conservative party?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-backing-mps-plot-their-attacks-on-whatsapp-sw5gp7680?shareToken=b5dea091e054956d5bc11f7929d5c484

DorothyL · 11/02/2017 09:05

Yes this is how I feel, it's heartbreaking. (German as well)

Swipe left for the next trending thread