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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Badders123 · 10/02/2017 21:18

Anon...my colleague is reliant on benefits as well as her jobs. She is pretty scared. With good reason imo.
All my other colleagues voted leave too - except me and one other woman.
So your scenario of her being "ganged up on" by leering remainers is simply untrue.
Interestingly we all manage to get on and respect each other.
I feel for my colleague. She feels betrayed and scared.
It's not about scoring points - this is peoples lives.

CeciledeVolanges · 10/02/2017 21:20

Anon, we are watching the subsuming of the UK, the ending of democracy, and whole swathes of people across the UK are upset and frightened, yes. What exactly is your friend scared of?

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 21:24

And - anecdotally again - my area which voted overwhelmingly for leave is in a bit of an odd place atm.
Lots of very vocal local leavers pre June 16 have gone very very quiet.
some manufacturing jobs looking very dodgy and a big proposed development is looking unlikely now.
And that's just my area.
I'm not seeing support for hard brexit locally

TatianaLarina · 10/02/2017 21:26

I worry that we've shown the way to trump, who we know celebrated brexit - and now we have this travel ban 'executive order' - and it seems to me that we might now see some kind of attack in the USA - perhaps organised by a secret service rather than a terrorist group - because this would play straight into the hands of those who favour an anti democratic lock down in the US - and Putin will be able to do what he wants in Eastern Europe and countries will be far less able to stop him.

Spot on. False flag attacks is what they're called. One of the key proponents of their use was actually British - General Sir Frank Kitson, who rose to be head of the armed forces in the UK. He served in Kenya, where he devised these techniques, Malaya, Oman, NI. He wrote several books which are dry but well worth reading: 'Low Intensity Operations: subversion, insurgency and peacekeeping', ' 'Gangs and Counter Gangs', 'Bunch of Five' and 'Directing Operations'.

Counter gangs being forces - either straight military or special forces - who could pass themselves off as insurgents or terrorists, and most controversially, carry out attacks for a political objective.

If the ban is quashed, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a false flag, followed by Trump intoning "'y'see you should have let me keep dem Muslims out".

On the other hand, given the extent of conspiracy theorising in the US, and the genuine fear about where Trump may lead, it may not be wise to attempt it right now.

We can count on Bannon to continue to stir division behind the scenes, if the Muslim ban falls apart, they will come up with someone comparably crazy and controversial.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 21:31

Just being pedantic, but the country didn't vote to leave the EU (let along the Single Market Hmm).

The actuality is that the Nation State of the United Kingdom, by a narrow majority in an advisory referendum, voted to leave.

The country of England and the principality of Wales voted to leave. The region of Northern Ireland and the country of Scotland voted to stay.

Please don't say "country". It pisses off me the Scots. By all means say the not very United Kingdom.

Can you imagine the howls of outrage if the vote to leave in England had been slightly closer and the strength of the Scottish vote had been strong enough to make it marginally Remain Shock?!

CeciledeVolanges · 10/02/2017 21:32

Can I just say "great britain" also technically excludes NI? Although to be honest, so do most of the May government's policies

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 21:36

It's something I find laughable that the leavers I know who would blame the eu for refusing to give into any uk demands are also the same people who thought Scotland could go whistle if they thought they'd get anything from the rest of us if indyref had gone the other way.

TatianaLarina · 10/02/2017 21:39

Correction: Kitson was technically Commander in Chief of the UK Land Forces

TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 21:50

I personally find it helpful to imagine Brexit as an abstract concept that by definition can have no innate downsides.

It therefore follows that anything associated with Brexit must be correct and of the good in some way however convoluted (£ dropping, food and fuel inflation, tearing up EURATOM and other scientific collaborations, Control, Sovereignty that we always had, Donald Trump, Paul Nuttall), and that anything which can't be rendered as positive must be due to extrinsic confounding factors (Remoaners, Talking Britain Down, Metropolitan Liberal Elite Citizens of Nowhere, Enemies of the People et al).

I believe that by adopting this way of thinking, I will find the path to Getting Over It and Sucking It Up accepting Brexit.

Anon1234567890 · 10/02/2017 21:52

I made a point, maybe childishly. But I do know people who voted leave who are now under so much pressure by liberals that they are really upset. In some work places to admit you voted leave is to invite a lot of verbal abuse.

Democracy is under assault from the hard left.

lalalonglegs · 10/02/2017 21:57

I think you'll find the hard left voted leave. You obviously meant to write the liberal, metropolitan elite Hmm.

TatianaLarina · 10/02/2017 21:59

How do you think that EU nationals and ethnic minorities feel who have been put under pressure by the Brexit campaigns, government policies and public hostility?

Anon1234567890 · 10/02/2017 22:00

did I ? Confused

TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 22:00

How do you think that EU nationals and ethnic minorities feel who have been put under pressure by the Brexit campaigns, government policies and public hostility?

Chopped liver.

Anon1234567890 · 10/02/2017 22:01

TatianaLarina - the vote was about UK nationals not EU nationals (who ever they are?)

prettybird · 10/02/2017 22:04

Ds, who at 16 will be able to vote in this year's Council elections and the upcoming Indyref2 is really pissed off that he wasn't able to vote on the something that will so fundamentally affect his future although he'd only have added to the Scottish Remain vote and therefore made no difference

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 22:11

But prettybird adding to the Scots Remain vote would have added into the total. The hard Leavers would have been really pissed off if the Scots, NI and Gibraltar vote combined had been sufficient to tip the balance.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 22:13

"EU nationals (who ever they are?)"

Real people with real families for whom there are real consequences. Sad

At least in the Scottish Referendum, they were allowed a vote. even if Better Together lied to them and told them they'd be sent home if we voted No

Kaija · 10/02/2017 22:14

"Remaining in the single market is different to being a member of."

How?

TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 22:16

EU nationals (who ever they are?)

See? Chopped liver.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 22:16

Kaija - come now, you know the answer to that. We stay members of the single market, but we don't pay our dues. Because, you know, they need us more than we need them.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 22:18

Peregrina - the Maths is that even if almost every Scot eligible to vote (and ds wasn't) had voted Remain, the numbers in England would still have resulted in a Leave vote Sad

Much as I would have loved the Schadenfreude result of the "others" forcing England to stay Wink, it needed to be much much closer in England for that to come into play.

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 22:19

Someone didn't tell the electoral commission it was just for UK nationals considering some weren't allowed to vote and many Irish people were.

boredofbrexit · 10/02/2017 22:19

Quite the opposite Peregrina.

Corcory · 10/02/2017 22:19

Prettybird - I remember when the voting age reduced from 21 to 18 not so very long ago. So not that much to get 'pissed off' about in the scheme of things.

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