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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

OP posts:
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Badders123 · 10/02/2017 20:28

Yes I would like to see a GE
Corcory....obv this is just anecdote but I work with someone. She is 50. She has 3 part time jobs as she is unskilled. Very jolly lady. She voted leave and regrets it bitterly. She is horrified by what TM is doing and is realising what it means for her and people like her. Since the referendum I have seen her mental health decline. She is now on anti depressants.

She cannot be the only one.
Whole swathes of the population feel lied to and are frightened
I sorry you can't understand that.
I get that you think brexit will be a new Albion but many many don't.
Have you no compassion for those watching the dismantling of the nhs and the welfare state and being worried sick about their future?
You don't happen to know any?....so they don't exist?....

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 20:29

Or make that not Blair, but an absolutely extreme Left winger, who say appropriated the property of the wealthy, with no compensation? Or introduced a 90% tax rate, none of which was in any manifesto?.

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 20:31

wrong its more interesting you assumed I was talking about you.

Kaija · 10/02/2017 20:31

Or indeed if Re has won 52 to 48

Kaija · 10/02/2017 20:32

Sorry - if Remain had won 52 48 and Cameron took that as a mandate to join the Euro

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 20:33

Peregrina In some ways I agree with you. But if a GE was called now, the Tories would get in with a hugely increased majority.

This wouldn't be good from my point of view - other than to resolve the Brexit issue - as I do not want a large Tory majority. From your point of view, how would it be better? We would still leave. Is it just that you would think it would confirm that this is really what parliament should agree to?

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 20:34

Sorry - if Remain had won 52 48 and Cameron took that as a mandate to join the Euro
The people have spoken and clearly they want us to be fully integrated into the EU so therefore we will join the euro and shengen.

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 20:34

Best case scenario....Ken clarke for PM!

Kaija · 10/02/2017 20:36

Quite, hashi, Will of the People.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 20:37

I suspect that the Tories would get in again, and no, it would not be what I personally wanted. But that would be our Parliamentary system and I would have to accept it. I would at least hope that a proper manifesto was published. So we would see the commitment to Hard Brexit spelt out. We would expect to see something on the NHS. We would expect something on Education etc. etc. At the moment, it seems to be whatever May wants.

Figmentofmyimagination · 10/02/2017 20:44

I'm feeling quite scared at the moment post brexit.

I worry that we've shown the way to trump, who we know celebrated brexit - and now we have this travel ban 'executive order' - and it seems to me that we might now see some kind of attack in the USA - perhaps organised by a secret service rather than a terrorist group - because this would play straight into the hands of those who favour an anti democratic lock down in the US - and Putin will be able to do what he wants in Eastern Europe and countries will be far less able to stop him.

  • and in Europe we've shown the way to le pen, and the right in Germany.

I agree with the comment up thread about a coup - but I don't believe it's actually playing out as the plotters hoped - but that's hardly surprising, because right through history, when a small elite (on this occasion, the mad Tory euro sceptics) harnesses the fears and anger of The Crowd, it never works out as the small elite planned - which isn't surprising, as their objectives are never aligned.

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 20:44

Peregrina

Suppose when Blair got in he completely ripped up the mandate he was elected on, and assumed that what he wanted was what the country wanted. Would that have been acceptable to you?

To answer your question, no, it wouldn't. But I don't believe this is what TM is doing. There isn't really such a thing as "what the country wants" as we have seen. But we had a referendum and the majority was for leaving the EU. So it is not making an assumption to respect that choice. It would be pointless to remain in the EU in all but name which staying in the SM with fom would be (and I remember many remainers - not on here - sneering in the days after the referendum that this is what the country would do, and the daft leavers wouldn't even notice the difference.)

I know you are very sceptical of polls but there have been many which show that the majority of the population are happy with how TM is handling Brexit. And if a GE was held, to confirm this, it would be a landslide.

What is your evidence that the majority are not happy with how the government is handling Brexit?

Kaija · 10/02/2017 20:50

" It would be pointless to remain in the EU in all but name which staying in the SM with fom would be (and I remember many remainers - not on here - sneering in the days after the referendum that this is what the country would do, and the daft leavers wouldn't even notice the difference.)"

However, before the vote prominent Leavers were suggesting that we would absolutely be staying in the Single Market. This hard Brexit consensus amongst leavers only emerged months after the vote.

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 20:52

Figment...
Don't be silly...
No one is scared!!!

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 21:00

But I don't believe this is what TM is doing.

We will have to disagree. I personally have met now Ex Conservatives who are incandescent that the Manifesto commitment to the Single Market is being ignored. A Referendum to Leave the EU was just that - there were, as we have said numerous times, no qualifying questions.

Evidence for people wishing to Remain in the Single Market at least - facebook groups and websites with far far more members than the YouGov poll. A packed meeting at Oxford Town Hall a couple of weeks ago, which had to be moved to a bigger room, such was the demand.

Richmond Park by election, although granted there were special factors in play there. Witney by election where the Conservatives lost 19,000 votes. Lib Dems winning by elections in some unlikely places, mostly taking votes from Conservatives e.g. last night's 5 by elections where they were unable to defend the two seats which had been Conservative.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 21:01

Even Farage is on record as extolling the Norwegian model....

prettybird · 10/02/2017 21:02

Going back to what WrongTrouser Said, "you we're arguing for weeks that A50 needed to be debated and discussed in parliament and voted on by MPs. I agree that it was right that this happened."

If only. Hmm

If only Parliament had had a chance to properly debate and discuss it. A day per reading, with the White Paper only produced in the midst of the process is hardly meaningful debate. HmmAngry

and I'm ignoring the lack of moral fibre of Corbyn et al in that disappointment Sadthat's a whole separate issue Angry

boredofbrexit · 10/02/2017 21:03

Beg to differ Kaija.
And plenty Remainers prophesised a leave vote meant out.
Remaining in the single market is different to being a member of.

More energy should be spent now on putting pressure on the EU to reform, to a form more acceptable to all its member states - for dissent is widespread.
If that came about, maybe what it became would be acceptable to Leavers and Remainers both.
All this hate is wasted energy that could best be harnessed in more worthwhile and productive endeavours.
But we have to travel along the path to leave first, as democracy dictates.

Mistigri · 10/02/2017 21:03

Haven't seen any leavers on MN want soft Brexit so where are these people?

Pre-referendum, all the most vocal leavers on MN were adamant that "no one will have to leave" and that brexit would have no impact on Brits living in the EU. It was all very soft Brexit "Norway model" (until people pointed out what this meant, at which point there was some cycling through the Switzerland/ Iceland models and eventually, when desperation set in, Albania).

Now, you could argue that the people making these arguments were in many cases being paid to post on social media by Mr Cummings and Mr Banks and their friends, and I wouldn't argue with you. Perhaps these were not "real" brexiters. But nevertheless, the discourse pre-referendum was very different to the prevailing mood 6 months later.

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 21:07

I think we will have to agree to differ Peregrina. I don't deny that there are people, and groups of people, and particular pockets of the country who are incredibly unhappy about leaving the SM. I'm not saying that these people's views aren't important, they are. But I believe the majority of the population do want to leave the EU. I don't think either of us will convince the other though Smile

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 21:10

Sorry my last EU was supposed to be SM.

Mistigri · 10/02/2017 21:11

wrongtrouser why do you confuse leaving the EU and leaving the SM?

Anon1234567890 · 10/02/2017 21:12

This is just anecdote but I work with someone. She is 49. She has 2 part time jobs as she is unskilled. Very happy lady. She voted leave and pretends she regrets it bitterly. She is horrified by the outraged bleating of her liberal colleagues but to scared to tell hem the truth. Since the referendum I have seen her mental health decline. She is now on anti depressants.
She cannot be the only one.
Whole swathes of the population feel under pressure and are frightened.
I sorry you can't understand that.
I get that you think staying in the EU will be the answer but many many don't.
Have you no compassion for those watching the subsuming of the UK, ending democracy and paying massive budget contributions in the future?
You don't happen to know any?....so they don't exist?....

Mistigri · 10/02/2017 21:14

Ok see you've corrected. But I'm not clear on what basis you make that claim unless, like Trump, you "just know" that your crowd is the biggest.

Mistigri · 10/02/2017 21:14

(That was to Corcory, obviously)

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