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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:42

Wrong...
It's called "checks and measures"
It's a pretty important facet of our parliamentary democracy

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 18:43

It's called "checks and measures"
It's a pretty important facet of our parliamentary democracy

To quote the great Alan Partridge - that's quite vague.

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 18:44

Ok, I'll bite.

Why do you think people asking the HoL to table amendments on a bill is about overturning the decision of a referendum wrong? Are you only able to see in absolute them vs us ways?

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 18:45

Are you trying to be disingenuous Wrong, or do you genuinely not know?

The House of Lords is a revising chamber. It's primary function now is to stop poorly drafted legislation going through, but they don't normally block things and I can't see them doing so with A50. It's their duty to say that something is sloppy. May's White Paper wasn't sloppy now, was it? Apart from saying that we were all entitled to 14 weeks holiday a year. Of course, duty is an old fashioned word which seems to have changed meaning. It now seems to mean, do whatever Dictator May says.

Do you want the legislation to be drafted well, or will any old mess do, to be sorted out by lawsuit after lawsuit going on for years?

However, some issues, like the Tories plan to reintroduce Grammar schools could be blocked because it wasn't a manifesto commitment, just something that is a bee in Theresa May's bonnet.

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:46

I remember lord Lucas defending the rights of home educating parents back in 2010...
Ed balls was trying to take parental rights away with his "families act"
That convinced me of the need for the HoL...they aren't scared of offending their constituents and - unlike many many MPs - they will vote with their consience and not tow some party line

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 18:48

But Figment where we differ is that I think parliament voted to trigger A50 because they thought it was the right thing to do. You seem to be saying they were cowed into it by the tabloids.

I find it very hard to understand how on the WM threads, you we're arguing for weeks that A50 needed to be debated and discussed in parliament and voted on by MPs. I agree that it was right that this happened.

But you can't now just go "Well that's not good enough" because MPs didn't vote the way you want. That's democracy for you.

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:48

Quite amusing to hear leavers bleating about this poorly drafted, vague bill being held up by the HoL in order to make it well drafted and pertinent!
Smacks more than a little of the US alt right pissing their pants over the US judiciary doing its job in much the same way...
🤔

Figmentofmyimagination · 10/02/2017 18:49

Exactly - you get careful expert review without being beholden to the latest bout of frenzied hysteria. I'm a big fan. I cannot imagine why anybody would want a second elected chamber, let alone to abolish them.

HashiAsLarry · 10/02/2017 18:49

badders I read that as Lord Lucan and got very confused Confused

Figmentofmyimagination · 10/02/2017 18:52

Parliament voted for A50 because the 'people have spoken' - one MP in particular was quite explicit about that. Shockingly so. On our heads be it. Actually I thought it was appropriate for the HC to vote and it is now appropriate for the HL to review. Just that the HL are better decision makers, especially at the moment - ie since 2011 IMHO!

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 18:52

I got as far as "Dictator May" Peregrina and I really don't see any point reading further. You can't lecture me about the democratic process whilst bandying phrases like that about.

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:52

Wrong -
Are you being deliberately obtuse!?
How many MPs either resigned, rebelled or made clear their disquiet before voting for A50!?
They voted because they are completely cowed by the rise of populism
It's pretty clear...isn't it?
In my area alone 2 MPs have been very vocal in their horror of brecit and A50 -
Still voted it through though
That's why the right are so scared now
They simply cannot control the HoL in that way
No 3 line whip there!
👍

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:54

Ah yes
"The people"
Or rather 52% of those who voted
Let's not worry about those who regret their vote or who had no idea what they were voting for.....
How inconvenient!!

Badders123 · 10/02/2017 18:55

Noticed Teresa the appeaser is using some face Cameron's "let me be clear..."

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 18:57

Badders That is you view of what happened. I don't share it. My own MP voted remain, but voted for A50 because he believed the referendum result must be respected.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 18:58

Sorry about that Wrong, although I believe that I am entitled to express an opinion and you are at perfect liberty to disagree.

The end result of your saying you couldn't be bothered to read further also means that you duck a question - Do you want the legislation to be drafted well, or will any old muddle do?

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 19:03

They voted because they are completely cowed by the rise of populism

Quite so, and while the Press is enjoying telling us about Labour rebels, it's not telling us about the 80 or so Tory MPs who quite happily ignored the wishes of their constituents.

One thing the Referendum has done, is galvanise people into action and they are beginning to note just how their MPs chose to represent them, or only chose to represent them come election time, when suddenly their Constituents' opinions matter to them.

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 19:05

Thanks Peregrina and I agree we are all entitled to our opinions.

Yes, I do think the legislation needs to be well drafted. If I thought that you were all talking about lobbying the Lords to suggest some minor tweeking, I wouldn't question that. Have I misunderstood? The letter tweeted by the LibDem Lord above doesn't look like someone asking the Lords to just do a bit of minor redrafting.

Bearbehind · 10/02/2017 19:08

My own MP voted remain, but voted for A50 because he believed the referendum result must be respected.

And that's exactly the problem.

Those MP's do not believe it's the right choice for the country, they have not been persuaded by any of the non-existant plans, they think it will be an almighty fuckup.

They've said their piece and voted to give the people 'want they want' whilst securing themselves in the knowledge that when it all goes tits up they can say 'I told you so but I did what you wanted'

SemiPermanent · 10/02/2017 19:08

How much more explicit or better drafted could the bill possibly be?!

It is purely & simply a bill to allow TM to trigger article 50 & start the Brexit process.

That's it.

lalalonglegs · 10/02/2017 19:08

While I had very deep reservations about the HoL when it was dominated by hereditary peers, I think that appointing peers because of their experience and/or expertise to revise legislation is a sensible way of doing things. Although the Lords still has a bias to whichever government is in power at the time (and appoints a whole new raft of peers of their own political colours), the Lords are generally more outspoken and more willing to ignore tribal politics and, most importantly, to use their expertise and experience to point out the flaws in legislation that has been rushed through by over-zealous governments and useless opposition.

For those of you who are thinking of writing, I'm using the writetothem.com/lords which gives you the opportunity to search a key word such as Brexit and see which peers have spoken about it in recent months with links to their speeches. I have then written to six who were cross-benchers or Conservatives/Labour peers who were not feverishly toeing the government/Corbyn's line. I will have to wait 48 hours before I can write to another six but, using my normal email and my work email, I think I can probably write to about 35-40 before the bill's second reading in the Lords Smile.

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 19:13

Badders

Quite amusing to hear leavers bleating about this poorly drafted, vague bill being held up by the HoL in order to make it well drafted and pertinent!
Smacks more than a little of the US alt right pissing their pants over the US judiciary doing its job in much the same way...

Well yes, except that I didn't say anything about the HoL redrafting the bill.

I was asking a question about 1) the HoL blocking A50 (which I agree with pp isn't going to happen) but
2) more particularly why, if what you believe is so good about the HoL is that it is away from the fray of politics, populism, the media etc, you feel it appropriate to lobby them? It just seems a bit contradictory to me.

TatianaLarina · 10/02/2017 19:13

Afaic WrongTrouser it's about trying to mitigate the fact that this country has experienced a mini coup. A small, far right cabal has gained power off the back of an advisory plebiscite and is choosing to hijack the outcome onto a route for which they have no mandate, nor the support of half the country.

At the same time opposition has collapsed. So we have had only the merest gesture towards democracy - fallen domino MPs wave Brexit through the HoC in fear of a) a constitutional crisis and b) the mob, and c) their own parties.

So no that's not real democracy. And that's where the HoL comes in as one of the important checks and balances that democracy is made of.

They don't have the power to save the country, but they can go down fighting.

In retrospect this whole sorry episode will be regarded as a folie en masse, I think the constitutional process will be changed to prevent something similar happening again. (As after the civil war).

boredofbrexit · 10/02/2017 19:14

I didn't think Tony Blair was good for the countey.
And there WAS an almighty fuck up.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 19:14

That is of course, just one Lord's opinion. No doubt the Lords have a complete range of opinions. I don't doubt that he will try to discharge his duty as effectively as he is able to. Apart from his last half sentence about blocking A50 I personally don't see a lot to disagree with. E.g. May assumes that she has carte blanche to take the UK out of the Single Market; the Conservative manifesto said that they were committed to it. The Referendum didn't ask that question. May hasn't been tested in a General Election, so she hasn't yet published any manifesto to the contrary, so as far as I am concerned, that commitment stands, and since the Tories got in, that is what the electorate are happy with too.

On the whole, whatever the merits of an unelected second chamber, I think they are doing a good job.