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Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

OP posts:
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HesterThrale · 05/02/2017 09:41

Cecile I know what you're saying, but do we know for a fact that A50 is irrevocable?

One of the Libdems amendments (point 3, www.libdemvoice.org/lib-dem-amendment-to-give-people-a-vote-on-final-brexit-deal-53146.html)

is for a referendum question to say:

'Do you support the Government's proposed new agreement.....or should the U.K. remain a member of the EU?'

I understand Leavers would be anxious that the whole thing would be reversed, but if the proposed deal was suicidally self-harming, what should we do? It could be an impossible situation.

Lico · 05/02/2017 09:42

Sickness Health Insurance required for EU Nationals on Self Sufficiency for Permanent Residency.
UK was in breach of EU law on that one.

one..www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance-what-is-it-and-who-needs-it/

prettybird · 05/02/2017 09:43

...posted by accident.

Meant also to say, just as TM did. The complaints being made by Trump's advisors sound remarkably similar to the ones here about the High Court and Supreme Court.

Lico · 05/02/2017 09:47

Saw this on BBC news

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38840576

SemiPermanent · 05/02/2017 09:51

So it seems that the US system of checks & balances - no man being above the constitution etc are starting to grind into motion now.
Trump's being challenged, as should happen, in the proper, democratic way.

Good news.

WrongTrouser · 05/02/2017 09:51

gisforGirl
"Cages are rattled"

Hell yes

Did the Brexit Arms shut down or something? I am missing the usual intelligent discussions.

Or are leavereps being paid by the word now?

gisforGirl You haven't answered my question about who you are accusing of being a leaverep. There are a handful of leavers who post on these threads, so presumably you mean one or more of us.

Perhaps your comment was an attempt at humour and not a genuine accusation in which case perhaps you could clarify this.

If not, please could you either tell me who you are accusing of being a paid leaverep?

RedToothBrush · 05/02/2017 09:52

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/donald-trump-muslim-ban-johnson-beharry-victoria-cross-humiliated-a7563451.html
Victoria Cross recipient Johnson Beharry 'humiliated' by Trump 'Muslim ban'

Initial interview was in The Sun on Sunday.

Our Victoria Cross hero.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/05/donald-trump-lies-belief-totalitarianism?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Trump’s lies are not the problem. It’s the millions who swallow them who really matter

Quite a few people recommending this long read by Nick Cohen this morning.

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HashiAsLarry · 05/02/2017 10:04

Johnson Beharry? It wouldn't have taken someone two seconds to google him. Insane.

whatwouldrondo · 05/02/2017 10:06

Semi On China I posted that current world affairs make strange bedfellows after posting on Friday night a link to Isobel Hilton's article in the Guardian which outlines how Xi has indeed been behaving like the only grown up on the world stage. Both my post and Isobel's article (and she is one of the few journalists writing on China who truly knows her stuff and believe me she is no fan ) made it clear that domestically China under Xi has become more repressive. In spite of your quickly googled Washington Post article I doubt you have the slightest clue what that means beyond the standard beloved causes of celebrities, like Tibet (and actually whilst the government may be suppressing Tibetan identity, as indeed it is of around 50 other minority cultures you are unlikely to have even heard of, the Tibetan political system that is trying to assert itself is in itself medieval). How about a system that allowed millions of farmers to be infected with HIV by the companies who harvested their blood which was taxed by the government as an "agricultural product". That allows young girls to be trafficked across the country to be sold off as wives because the one child policy has caused a massive gender imbalance (and think what that means in terms of aborted babies / girl babies left out to die ) . I could go on. and on. When I said I had stood under a yellow umbrella you presumably understand that means I stood in front of the newly thugged Hong Kong police, and their plain clothed mainland thug cronies, equipped with truncheons and tear gas, to protest about Chinese attempts to chip away at the safeguards of the principle of "one country, two systems" that safeguards the basic law, the rule of law there. I do not fail to take seriously the repression in China.

However as Isobel says, and I include the link again, because you clearly did not get the point (www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/03/donald-trump-making-china-great-again-xi-jinping?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other)

"In terms of international diplomacy, things are going well. It’s hard to imagine Trump quoting Thucydides, or Stephen Hawkins or Herman Hesse, or cramming references to Pandora’s box, the Peace of Westphalia and the sword of Damocles into a 58-minute plea for peace and international cooperation. Such a carefully crafted speech might have been delivered by previous US presidents, since it paid fulsome homage to the core values the US has promoted since 1945. But this was delivered by the general secretary of the Chinese Communist party and president of the China, to an audience at the United Nations in Geneva in January. China’s proposition to the world, Xi said, was to “build a community of shared future for mankind and achieve shared and win-win development”.

Such a claim might previously have encountered polite scepticism. Today, it receives an almost uncritical welcome."

When you have a US President who is war mongering, the power behind his throne, Bannon, having said that war with China is inevitable within the next five years, then yes you do have to hope that Xi keeps to Chinese values and the Confucian system that puts stability and prosperity before individual egos and nationalism . I suggest you acquaint yourself, it might be our only hope asiasociety.org/education/confucianism

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:14

I agree with you in many ways Semi, although I do find the rhetoric of "so-called judges", so similar to "enemies of the people" a bad sign. Especially when the USA doesn't have the same system of independent judges to start with.

bummedmummy · 05/02/2017 10:14

Red, can I just say thank you for these incredibly informative threads which I discovered a couple of weeks ago. I'm British / American, remainer / democrat and have been feeling like I'm losing my mind. These discussions are a lifeline.

I've plagiarised your description of the white paper as a "dog's dinner of farcical proportions..." to encourage folk to write to their MPs. It's getting a lot of shares. You certainly have a way with words.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:16

We don't know for a fact that it is irrevocable, Hester, and a challenge is being brought in the Irish courts on just that though. However, the government's current statements suggest they have no intention of revoking even if it were possible, and even if they did I can't imagine the rEU just saying "oh, that's OK then. Moving on."

HesterThrale · 05/02/2017 10:21

Yes Cecile, true. But, just say, if there were a referendum on the final deal which was then rejected... what then? Catch 22. No time to renegotiate, but the people don't want the profferred deal. My eyes are watering with the impossibility of it all.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:27

Exactly. This has been the problem since day 1.

Kaija · 05/02/2017 10:30

Was about to post the Nick Cohen piece. Well worth reading if a little grim for a Sunday morning.

I think the lib dem position is that if people reject the final deal we stay in.

HesterThrale · 05/02/2017 10:31

Mmmm, exactly Cecile.

Well... you have to laugh sometimes:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=mAy9V5LvDP4&feature=youtu.be

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:32

Also no time then to have a court case to find out whether it is revocable or to seek agreement from the other 27 to extend the time. They don't want another referendum, because prt of the justification for doing this no matter what is because they have complained about exactly that sort of thing with the Lisbon Treaty: "oh, the people said no, then the elite forced it on them anyway." I imagine they know that once those cards they have held so close to their chests are revealed to be blank, people are bound to say no to the deal on the table, no matter how expertly spun, so they don't want to give them the chance to say no. The whole attitude of "this referendum is a magical mandate but we don't want to hear from any of you ever again" is what makes me so angry. "The people have spoken and now they will get what they asked for and they will get it good and hard" type of thing.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:33

Right, Kaija, but how will they do that?

TheElementsSong · 05/02/2017 10:33

ron thank you for your actions and posts on China Flowers. I agree with you.

HashiAsLarry · 05/02/2017 10:39

This is exactly why an advisory only referendum should be taken only as advisory. In a non insane world the government would be taken the leave vote as something to work towards in a beneficial manner rather than something we have to do in the next five minutes regardless of the outcome.

I'm quite sure article 50 is revocable. The language of the article is such that the EU and a leaving state are meant to work together to ensure a mutual lack of harm. Events happen in the world that affect us in the short spaces of 2 years, it would be very harmful to hold either side to leaving if the landscape of the world has suddenly changed. I suspect the question however if what constitutes acceptable revocation.

HesterThrale · 05/02/2017 10:39

Cecile and Kaija, the whole thing would depend on a big, discernible change in public opinion. Some of the Lords who responded to me seemed to be saying that the Govt would find it hard to go against clear public opinion, whichever way it had swung.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/02/2017 10:43

But if A50 is irrevocable, it will not matter one whit if public opinion changes.

HesterThrale · 05/02/2017 10:50

The Govt need to know that many people are very angry at having their EU citizenship stripped from them. Having to respond to petitions like this will be another little message:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/172021