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Brexit

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Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

OP posts:
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Figmentofmyimagination · 04/02/2017 12:20

debbie there I was thinking you'd actually done some research/ thought for yourself.

As you are such an Orban expert you will remember, I expect, watching the appalling videos circulating this time last year of guards slinging sandwiches across wire fences to a crowd of refugees, who had to fight to catch them. There is - and has been for months now - anger and concern within the EU about Hungarian treatment of refugees and orban's racist stance.

Maybe it would help if you did your own research, instead of parroting whatabouterry from the DF.

Mistigri · 04/02/2017 12:20

I know a few pensioners in France who are living in fear because as things stand at the moment their pensions will not meet the income figure, 1485 Euros, per person (no account taken of outgoings e.g. having bought a house outright so no outgoings on rent or mortgage) that France has set as a condition of residency

It's not just pensioners who will be affected: my guess is that at least three quarters of UK citizens living in my area will fall below the cut off (note that the income requirement does not apply to EU citizens or the partners of EU citizens - only couples where both are non-EU).

I know quite a few English families but almost none where both partners earn at least the SMIC (min wage). Round here f/t jobs are hard to come by for non-French speakers, let alone ones that pay more than the SMIC, and because housing costs are low, you can live reasonably well on the min wage. In fact of the British people I know well enough to guess their income accurately, I think we might be the one of only two families where both adults will qualify :-/ We are certainly the only British family I know who don't qualify for any means-tested benefits.

My bff is OK because her son is French, and my other close friend will be fine because he's married to a German - but everyone else is going to have problems, including our tenants.

ElenaGreco123 · 04/02/2017 12:24

Debbie I am quite concerned about the rise of Orban, but it is news to me that Merkel and Orban are friends. Putin's poodle is possibly a better description of Orban. Most of the time he talks rubbish. He tries to keep unemployment down, and they have built UEFA standard stadia with capacity for double the size of local population in nearly all possible sites in the country, so he is looking for something to build and keep people occupied (and his mates rich). He even applied to organise the Olympics in 2024. Orban is another one of those people who despises experts especially to do with finances, ie people who ask "But who is going to pay for this folly?" Sounds familiar?

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 12:25

Dammit. I've reported my last post because it's not correct. Should have double checked before I posted. Read the wrong heading on a graph Blush

NotDavidTennant · 04/02/2017 12:26

The morally correct thing to do is for both UK & EU to remove any doubt and agree that all citizens who are currently in a position where they have made a life and/or work within UK/EU are protected.

It's not as a simple as that though. For a start, define made a life. Any definition of who does and doesn't have a right to stay within the UK/EU will have lots of grey areas that will need to be ironed out in detail. That means that either each side has to make a unilateral declaration of who they will allow to stay (which runs the risk of one side getting less than the other), or it has to be the result of detailed negotiations leading to a binding agreement.

From the EU side it is even more than complicated that because (and I'm happy to be corrected if this is wrong) any deal offered by the EU has to be ratified by all the members states. So even if the EU did try to offer a unilateral deal to UK citizens, all it would take would be for say Slovenia or Estonia (to pick two completely random examples) to oppose the deal and the whole things is off. That's why from the EU perspective it makes more sense to go down the negotiated route.

whatwouldrondo · 04/02/2017 12:28

David it is the hyped up Daily Mail rhetoric that worries me though. Debbie is clearly wound up by it and in a way that she thinks pits her against what she no doubt perceives to be the "liberal elite" when in fact I doubt many remainers are under any illusions about the problem of the rise of the far right in Europe as well as America. It is all about division and creating hate figures instead of being about the reality.

Mistigri · 04/02/2017 12:30

EmilyAlice the reason you haven't seen that figure is that it doesn't apply to you yet! If you apply now it'll be for a "carte bleue européenne" which is a non-obligatory residents' card for EU nationals and for which there is of course no minimum income or language requirement. But once the UK leaves you'll need a non-EU residents' permit, which requires you to earn the SMIC or more and to take a French test.

Details all on the service-public.fr website (which is generally a very clear, well written and accurate guide to this sort of thing).

NotDavidTennant · 04/02/2017 12:31

Indeed - so which Politicians have congratulated May on Brexit and her meeting with Trump? Guess what - just those same far right politicians.

The even bigger irony for me is that a British equivalent of Orban would be heralded as a hero by the very newspaper that published that piece.

ElenaGreco123 · 04/02/2017 12:32

Debbie I have reported one of your posts, because I object to the fact that fascism is in my DNA.

NotDavidTennant · 04/02/2017 12:34

As ever the Simpsons

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 12:35

Debbie I have reported one of your posts, because I object to the fact that fascism is in my DNA.

Jolly good.

Do hope you'll report all other posts that assert various things to groups of people too.
You know, for balance.

I'd hate to think it's a Leave/Remain thing, after all.

Mistigri · 04/02/2017 12:37

Re Hungary, it's a nasty right wing regime, but it's a small country with a population of 10 million, no nuclear weapons and zero international influence. Orban is not going to go to war with Iran or China.

Making false comparisons between Orban's Hungary and Trump's US is an intellectually bankrupt argument. You can oppose both, but opposing Trump is far more urgent.

whatwouldrondo · 04/02/2017 12:41

Elena It is another Brexit trope, I have been told I am a facist liberal by my own family. It seems to cover having an opinion contrary to theirs.

EmilyAlice · 04/02/2017 12:41

Ah I see Misti. The language test does not apply to over 65s even for nationality (though the requirements would not be a problem for us). It is interesting though because I know some Americans who wouldn't meet the criteria at all. How did they get their cards?
As you say, if they applied the income figures to everyone it would take out a lot of people.

boredofbrexit · 04/02/2017 12:42

as does xenophobic leaver Ron.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 04/02/2017 12:46

Debbie I have reported one of your posts, because I object to the fact that fascism is in my DNA

Sorry its a quote from the paper today - not my words!

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 12:46

Tbf it's Oborne who was asserting the DNA thing given the copy paste job. Probably worth an ipso complaint.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 04/02/2017 12:47

but it's a small country with a population of 10 million, no nuclear weapons and zero international influence. Orban is not going to go to war with Iran or China.

^^ ah so thats why no one bats an eye lid then Confused

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 12:48

Cages are rattled.

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 12:48

Debbie I have reported one of your posts, because I object to the fact that fascism is in my DNA.

Have just re-read this, and am confused.

You are 'objecting to the fact that facism is in your DNA'?

So are you saying it is in your DNA? Confused

Or are you objecting to Debbie saying
"sadly, it is in the DNA of so many European countries"?

Because that is obviously completely different.

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 12:49

So what have you personally or people you know done about Orban prior to today Debbie?

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 12:53

And NotDavid I think you are right. There are a lot of problems in Europe which, in an alternate universe, the U.K. Could have used its position to address and try to fix. Unfortunately we are now leaving the club, which tends to be a bad way to try to deal with the members of the club or get the rulebook amended

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 04/02/2017 12:55

Debbie is clearly wound up by it and in a way that she thinks pits her against what she no doubt perceives to be the "liberal elite" when in fact I doubt many remainers are under any illusions about the problem of the rise of the far right in Europe as well as America

Er no Hmm I know many posters on here care deeply that TM has not in their eyes stood up to Trump in spite of her securing Trumps 100% backing on NATO.

I am being helpful, you know have some more people to go after in the backyard as it were as I know some of you have very high morals that pertain to TM and Trump.

It will be interesting to read your posts re Merkel/Hollande etc and Orban etc.

Or are you objecting to Debbie saying
"sadly, it is in the DNA of so many European countries"?

It was all supposed to be in quote marks sorry - it was all quoted from todays article.

Interesting that instead of showing out rage at this in their beloved EU they are picking on one sentence to get outraged about in it Hmm but this doesnt surprise me.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 04/02/2017 12:57

the U.K. Could have used its position to address and try to fix

27 countries couldn't fix this last year - what on earth do you expect the UK to do now?

How is it going to be fixed at all if the EU leaders are more concerned about going after Trump than getting their own back yard in order Confused

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 12:58

Debbie, what about your rage? You are understandably angry - how long have you know about this? Is it why you voted to leave? What are you going to do about it after today?

And if I were to write something about which was otherwise unobjectionable but include the sentence "X nation has (for example) paedophilia in their DNA" with nothing to indicate I disagreed to it, I think anyone with a connection to that nation would be justifiably upset with me

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