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Brexit

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Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

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ElenaGreco123 · 04/02/2017 10:24

The European Parliament is being flooded with “thousands” of requests from Britons anxious to remain EU citizens after Brexit.

Guy Verhofstadt, the parliament’s chief Brexit negotiator, vowed to press ahead with a proposal to offer them the chance to remain EU citizens, as he revealed the scale of interest on this side of the Channel.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-eu-citizenship-uk-stay-citizens-requests-a7555671.html%3famp

Kaija · 04/02/2017 10:27

Red "And here we are... I'd post the Dr Evil image but I'm on my phone."

Here you go:

Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.
Bearbehind · 04/02/2017 10:28

I think some clear information on the role of the EU and individual states in post-Brexit agreements (for existing immigrants and ongoing) would help us in this discussion. I will come back later when I have found some.

wrong I'm honestly not trying to be goady here but isn't it a bit late to be looking for answers those questions now?

The lack of answers was the reason most Remainers voted as we did. There was and still isn't a clear exit strategy and people's lives are being and will be hugely affect by this.

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 10:29

I haven't been able to read that Trump tweet without doing Dr Evil at the appropriate point Grin

TheElementsSong · 04/02/2017 10:31

Kajia love that!

RedToothBrush · 04/02/2017 10:31

Semi the British people voted to leave the EU. We screwed our own people living abroad without thought. We can't blame that on the EU. There is nothing to stop the UK from taking the moral high ground and unilaterally give full rights to EU citizens. One of the reasons they don't want to do this is because it would also reveal what rights will be removed from British citizens.

I think it's easier to blame the EU for bargaining chips rather than take responsibility for how you voted and the direct implications of that.

It's just a way of distancing and passing the buck.

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woman12345 · 04/02/2017 10:31

None of this divide and rule malarky that the Government is using successfully on its own people agree.

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 10:33

"There is no good reason for this" sums up Brexit in one perfect sentence.

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 10:39

Semi's seen this before, but this is my very long and boring two cents on the rights issue:

No. sorry, I'm going to set things out step by step again to avoid opacity:

  1. we are talking about rights like the right to reside, to cross internal borders, to work in any EU Member State or to get healthcare.
  2. those rights belong to U.K. And rEU nationals throughout the EU because of the EU and EU law (because the rights come from EU law).
  3. if things stay as they are, those rights remain undisturbed and so they are guaranteed.
  4. if we leave the EU, they could remain undisturbed because both the UK and the EU make new reciprocal guarantees. However, if the negotiations take a different turn, one group or the other - could be the EU citizens in the U.K., could be the UK nationals abroad - could lose their rights. So those rights are not, at the moment, guaranteed if we leave.

Basically, we started it, and the existence of the EU already constitutes a reciprocal guarantee of rights. I'm not aware that TM has approached the EU formally to discuss yet)

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 10:43

Afaik individual states can make their own non eu immigration rules. However other eu states are allowed to challenge these. Prior to the referendum a potential challenge to the CTA with ROI was touted as both a reason to stay and to leave. Whether or not these challenges would be successful is a whole other matter but the possibility for them exists and shouldn't be ignored, and if they're made even unsuccessfully they could tie negotiating hands for a while.

Let's just hope we get a group of adults around the table when article 50 is triggered. On both sides.

I really hope the eu holds the GFA in higher regard than the uk has.

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CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 10:52

"Prisoner nations" is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in this debate so far. Including the £350m figure. I don't know much about other countries, but here prisoners are
-locked up against their will as punishment for a crime they have committed;
-let out again at a time determined by the state;
-while they are incarcerated, tend to lose their jobs and sometimes their families, friends, houses etc;
-if work is available (unlikely) it is incredibly poorly paid);
-if there are problems with the prison it can lead to riots, health problems and possibly early death, early death by suicide etc;
-they are massively societally stigmatised when they come out because of the crime issue.

Please contrast a sovereign state (and this is a country, we can't move the UK because we are better friends with Europe) which joined a community of nations, constituted by voluntary and negotiated treaty which was ratified by a referendum of the population in this country, and in which we have signed further treaties, again voluntary and negotiated, and continued to implement legislation which required positive action faithfully and on time (mostly);

  • we have prospered economically an enormous amount and as a result of advantages we have gained within the EU have become its financial services centre;
-through the EU we have been a part of a number of trade deals with other nations; -we have had free and fair elections in this country to send representatives to the EP; -we are about to leave voluntarily though a mechanism included in one of the treaties we signed; -the government has already committed to implementing some legislation we technically don't need to implement because it is actually a good idea and will be the gold standard in consumer protection after we leave; -before we have left, we have implemented the investigatory powers act 2016 (as an example), which contravenes EU law in that it provides for indiscriminate bulk collection of data from overseas citizens, provides for equipment to be legally hacked by a huge number of public bodies, not just the security service, provides for ISPs to be asked to retain the browsing data of their users for years, provides for the data of those not suspected for criminal offences to be obtained and kept... I needn't go on, you get the idea.
Peregrina · 04/02/2017 10:52

I can see very few adults in Theresa May's cabinet. I am quite sure that some of the Senior Civil Servants are perfectly competent - which will be a good excuse to get rid of them.

When the history books are written people will ask why on earth was this madness allowed to happen?

RedToothBrush · 04/02/2017 10:53

John McDonnell MP ‏*@johnmcdonnellMP*
Rebecca Long Bailey was brilliant on #bbcqt with convincing common sense answers. Next generation of our socialist leadership team emerging.

Jo Maugham QC ‏*@JolyonMaugham*
Two pieces I've read in two days pushing Long Bailey. Is Corbyn preparing to stand down?

Mike Smithson ‏*@MSmithsonPB*
Agreed. Messages coming out of Camp Corbyn are all pro Rebecca Long-Bailey as JC' replacement. I'm on her at 66/1. You can still get 40/1

I don't read as much into this, but interesting none the less.

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howabout · 04/02/2017 10:55

Thanks Wrong that's what I thought.

CeciledeVolanges · 04/02/2017 10:55

Woman that UKIP communication stuff is just shocking, I don't know why but it seems deeply sinister. I'm not well versed in the law of elections, sadly, but it does seem pretty sinister, and has the air of some sort of underground resistance (to what!
?)

howabout · 04/02/2017 10:58

Bear lack of clarity in issues like this is one of the reasons I voted Leave.

GV on Hard Talk this week boasting his anti-EU credentials because he sees the current model as unsustainable.

Bearbehind · 04/02/2017 11:01

Bear lack of clarity in issues like this is one of the reasons I voted Leave.

What was the logic behind that?

Peregrina · 04/02/2017 11:03

If you voted Leave because of lack of clarity, are you happy with the level of clarity which Theresa May is now providing?

howabout · 04/02/2017 11:07

I am happy that there will be clarity at the end of the process. The level of complexity to get to that point only serves to reinforce my voting logic.

Bearbehind · 04/02/2017 11:09

I can't begin to comprehend that logic howabout

You are basically saying we'll know where we are at after it happens???

birdybirdywoofwoof · 04/02/2017 11:10

That's awesome logic.

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 11:11

The clarity of hundreds of individual trade deals and all they entail will be marvellous I'm sure Hmm

howabout · 04/02/2017 11:14

Why thank you Birdybirdy Blush

unicornsIlovethem · 04/02/2017 11:16

You voted leave because you knew it would be difficult to leave but that it would all be okay in the end. Wow.

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