Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

[RedToothBrush]

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

I agree that this would be about the rights of people already living in other countries (I am one). I think that it would be difficult for countries to refuse residence to people who had lived in a country "in a regular fashion" for five years or more. The countries might decide to extend that to everyone living there on referendum day, or those living there when the UK finally exits (though I doubt that). As I understand it "living in a regular fashion" involves having sufficient income not to be a burden on the host country, being registered for tax purposes and having health cover either by working, paying private insurance or having cover through the S1 form (this will apply to those in receipt of the state pension. I think that the UK could continue the S1 system of reciprocal rights as I have heard that this existed with some countries before they entered the EU.
In France I am expecting that we might have to obtain the "carte de séjour" which I understand is required for residents from non EU countries.
It seems to me that this should not be too difficult to agree, but that might be wishful thinking.

Interesting Hashi. I'm not actually using it as a debating point. I linked the article last night as I genuinely thought people on this thread would be interested that some progress is being made in resolving the issue of existing UK/EU immigrants.

I have heard pages and pages written about this very issue (pensioners in Spain, posters from the EU living in the UK). I have heard lots of criticism of TM for not unilaterally agreeing rights for EU nationals in the UK.

Now some progress seems to be being made (with bilateral agreements which is probably the way to go) you are suddenly saying it is a non-issue and if the countries can come to a solution but this is then blocked by the EU, this is not an problem.

It's not about whether the EU is a force for good or free from faults. It's about whether UK and Spanish immigrants in each other's countries can get on with their lives.

I think this is important, even though it doesn't effect me personally. I think I can safely assume it doesn't affect you personally Hashi but I am surprised that you don't still think it is important.

Wrong struggling to keep up with the reciprocal rights for citizens discussion. I don't think bilateral post EU immigration rules are subject to EU regulation? One of the issues with the migration crisis is that the UK etc have had no say in how Germany has mismanaged external migration and then has no say over whether these migrants are then granted EU citizenship via German nationality.

I think it is perfectly possible for the UK to have bilateral ongoing arrangements with Spain and Ireland post Brexit?

Am I missing something?

Britain are not using them as 'bargaining chips' at all.
The EU are.

I think you will find that the Government used this term first. The EU are only playing us at our own game. Why should they make extra concessions when the UK has whined and whined and whined for 43 years, and is never satisfied?

Either way, we always knew we couldn't have individual agreements with EU27 countries so why be surprised now?

Do you have any links which explain this? What I have read suggests these arrangements are not EU wide, but down to individual states, but I am happy to be corrected.

wrong I'm baffled by this comment. Why would we ever think EU member states were free to make agreements with us individually.

The fact that TM has said she can't guarantee the rights of EU citizens here because some EU countries won't reciprocate is testament to that.

You might not like it and it might be the reason you voted to Leave but the EU will remain bound by the wishes of all its members states.

To think we could pick and chose when we leave seems incredibly naive and you've never struck me as that before.

Am I missing something?

wrong I've clearly said it's not unproblematic. I've also not said it's a non issue either. I'm being nothing more than pragmatic largely because this massively affects me and my family.

The eu is what it is. We've decided to walk away from it. Fine. But it's not worth pretending that the things we've walked away from it from will suddenly cease to exist once we go.

The EU as a bloc has refused to do this to date, and will not allow member states to do so of their own volition.

The EU has said, invoke A50 first and then we will sit down and discuss. None of this divide and rule malarky that the Government is using successfully on its own people.

First the came for the people on benefits,
But I wasn't on benefits so I did nothing
Then they came for the Judges....

The EU are only playing us at our own game

Well, 'our game' has been to offer certainty to the EU citizens currently working & living here, by guaranteeing that their right to remain will be protected.

It would be great for all EU citizens (both British & non-British) if the EU did in fact 'play us at our own game'.

But they're not.

They have refused to agree to reciprocity.

I don't see how the EU could block countries from agreeing rights. We would cease to be EU nationals and would be in the same position as Australians, Americans etc.

Even the terms of discourse are wrong: ' bargaining chips'

Collusion is achieved when the populace absorbs and collaborates with the immorality of exclusion.
Nazis referred to Jews as 'Stucken' to 'other' them.

This is the worst government this country has ever had, and that's saying something.

The EU has said, invoke A50 first and then we will sit down and discuss. None of this divide and rule malarky that the Government is using successfully on its own people.

Why do they need to wait until A50 is invoked?

There is no good reason for this.

This could be sorted now.
It could have been sorted months ago, in fact.

howabout I was talking only about reciprocal agreements for existing nationals. From what I've read (I can't remember where but will have a look for a link) this is down to individual states, not the EU, but others are saying this in incorrect.

On ongoing immigration rules, again, I think it is down to individual states but others are saying not. At the moment the UK sets it own rules for immigration from non-EU countries, so I am not sure why people think the EU will dictate the rules after Brexit (unless the UK is going to be treated differently to the rest of the world to encourage the others )

And to refer back,
What about the £18k Labour gave to UKIP? Following on from Hoey's £5k.
What about the intensity with which they are fighting in Stoke?
Vigilance is the watchword.

I have to disagree Semi - any concession now has had to be dragged out of Theresa May. The EU haven't refused yet - they are sticking to the rules - invoke A50 and then the negotiations begin.

A question though for EU citizens living here now: do you feel that what Theresa May has offered is a guarantee of your right to live and work here?
Would you be confident to make future plans based on her 'guarantees'?

In a way, I had to laugh at Theresa May - she wasn't going to go to the EU summit in Malta, then she decided that she would because she's been brown nosing Trump and thought it might play well. Then she found it didn't.

This is not about Brexit. This is about democracy.
Banks has played a blinder, on both parties.

Re the US, I think there is a fine line between resisting to uphold the law and defying the law. I for one do not want the UK being run by the civil servants, although I am sure others disagree. Excessive power resting with the Commission is one of my many issues with the EU.

Ivan Rogers at the Select Committee yesterday was interesting in this regard.

To be fair I don't think the con MPs need bribing. They believe it anyway. The freedom association have close ties with ukip though...

Kevin Schofield @polhomeEditor
John McDonnell: "We will unite after the Article 50 vote because we've got a clear agenda."

Agenda: suicide

Ciaran Jenkins @C4Ciaran
Just waking up?
🛫Judge halts ban
😡White House says 'outrageous'
💵Trump revealed as beneficiary of Trust he signed over his businesses to

Ah ok then (he's been asked for a daily service by someone. I think we need) WH later removed word outrageous from press release as apparently it's could have left them open to legal challenge.
Oh and trump made it legal for banks to give consumers bad advice

Elliott Lusztig @eslutzig
#Brexit has put Britain in a catastrophically bad position. Trump's win just deepens the problem. An almost inconceivable disaster for UK.
t.co/Xnfo2Z8uFW
2. The fractious debates to follow will wreck the shallow pretense that #Brexit enjoys any real democratic legitimacy.
3. May's habit of sucking up to American Fascism - which the entire EU scorned this week - will further isolate Britain.
4. Younger Brits don't want #Brexit & their virulently anti-Trump politics will sponsor massive protests while new trade deals negotiated.
5. But MPs who see the disaster coming are afraid to contradict a slim 51.9% majority in favor of a slogan on the side of a bus? Madness.

Well this is more or less how I've been seeing in for a while.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
We must keep "evil" out of our country!

Law and Policy @lawandpolicy
Complete with Dr Evil air-quotes.

And here we are... I'd post the Dr Evil image but I'm on my phone.

Gish Gallop.

It's not about whether the EU is a force for good or free from faults. It's about whether UK and Spanish immigrants in each other's countries can get on with their lives

Interesting, in the hospitals round my way there are loads of Spanish workers in the NHS. Our news is dominated by the workers from Eastern Europe, not much has ever been said about the spanish, but certainly many nurses and doctors etc have been spanish.

EU Citizens and the facts.
This website goes through all the predicaments faced by EU nationals currently in the UKwww.freemovement.org.uk/position-eu-spouses-british-citizens-following-brexit/

I enclose an extract of my letter to my MP, Mark Field (I am really annoyed)

'I would be grateful if you could let me know your thoughts on the morality of splitting families, depriving a British child from his mother, depriving a British national from his wife and the threat of deportation for the long term UK resident who has contributed National Insurance, Income Tax and VAT since 1981? Will the UK government reimburse me for all the National Insurance Contributions that I made towards my State Pension should I have to leave this country and lose the pension?

How do you reconcile the easiness ,with which British nationals are able to obtain Resident permits on the Continent, with the disgraceful Home Office demands placed on EU nationals for the same piece of paper which is not even legally required?
Would you also be so kind to confirm that the 'Droit de famille' does not exist in the UK thus making it easier to split families up and for the UK Government to keep all the money they contributed?'

This could be sorted now. It could have been sorted months ago, in fact.

You really must refer this back to Theresa May and Boris Johnson. You don't get an amicable divorce when you start off by insulting people as both of those two have. Theresa May has shown that she doesn't know what the words conciliation or reconciliation mean. She could start with her own country.

Apologies

www.freemovement.org.uk/position-eu-spouses-british-citizens-following-brexit/

Bear I think some clear information on the role of the EU and individual states in post-Brexit agreements (for existing immigrants and ongoing) would help us in this discussion. I will come back later when I have found some.

This gish gallop is used everywhere now.

Brexit negotiations collapsing in chaos, are also going to play well for Banks I suspect part of the game plan is to provoke crisis.

I am not sure why people think the EU will dictate the rules after Brexit

As things stand, they won't, that's the issue isn't it? An EU-wide agreement is wanted by the people it will affect, otherwise they're at the mercy of individual governments' inconsistent (and changing) policies.