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Brexit

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Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

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woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:13

missmoon Sadly, this is all I could find on WEP and Labour, but things might change.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/09/labour-expelled-me-party-supporting-womens-rights

gisforGirl · 04/02/2017 09:20

"Kate Hoey is actually a Labour MP. Or so she says." Oh, I see Blush thank you. That's really bad too, actually worse. Thank you for clarifying!

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:20

So, there is a list of Leave Labour here:www.rtaylor.co.uk/next-ukip-defectors.html
What's important is not what happened then, but what happens now.
Leave Labour is a discrete party, I would argue, and should stand on those terms.
The others, as people have been suggesting: LD, Remain Labour, WEP, Greens should form an electoral pact.
And meanwhile the vigilance, that Obama has advocated in US, in coming times, should include our own vigilance at egregious and frankly immoral misogyny emanating from the tory benches.
We pay for and watch all of our public servants.

WrongTrouser · 04/02/2017 09:24

I am a bit surprised this thread seem so uninterested on the good news abut a possible UK/Spain reciprocal rights deal that I linked to yesterday. Perhaps Cecile will be interested - she has been discussing that with some of us leavers at the Porcine Arms, as I believe you are now referring to it, and is very interested in this issue.

Hashi

The issue with reciprocal rights for citizens like the Irish CTA agreement is that its open to EU challenge. Post Brexit we can strike that deal, but Spain may not be able to long term without forfeiting their EU membership

So it seems the UK and Spain may be able to agree a deal so that their nationals can continue their lives in each other's countries, can be free of worry and uncertainty and can get on with planning their futures. But you think the EU will scupper this, and seemingly don't have a problem with the EU doing this? Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 09:26

I don't know a lot about party funding and I assume that it's actually fairly common practice but banks to labour leave to ukip has a whiff of money laundering about it. Is there a limit to how much an individual donor can make or is it a way of inflating the look of your donor base?

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:27

^The Labour wing of the Brexit movement made an £18,500 donation to UKIP during the referendum.
Labour Leave handed over the payment on June 21st – two days before the referendum vote.
The gift came despite very public efforts by UKIP to target Eurosceptic Labour swing seats, especially those in the north^
heatst.com/world/labour-brexit-group-made-18500-referendum-donation-to-ukip/.
Apologies in advance if this is a dodgy source, not widely reported in MS press, if, of course, it is true.

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 09:30

wrong it's not that's it's not problematic but if equal treatment for all eu citizens in terms of movement is such a problem for us that we need to leave then it stands to reason Spain may not be able to fulfil whilst retaining their membership. Which they want. If we are leaving because we cannot make these deals then remained eu states can't either.

Bearbehind · 04/02/2017 09:30

wrong, I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you have an issue with Spain making a promise it can't keep? Or is it you're frustrated the EU won't allow them to keep that promise?

Either way, we always knew we couldn't have individual agreements with EU27 countries so why be surprised now?

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:31

So Swedish and Kaija it would appear that there were reciprocal funding arrangements.

But to look at if from the big picture, this has worked a treat, to divide and rule. A divisive vote has certainly done to the left what 30 years of Thatcher rule could not.

Attempts are being made everywhere to divide and rule (on gender, class, race, sexual orientation, in every forum) , we'll see how it works out.

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:32

Divide and rule: EU citizens here, ex pats there.

One year ago they were just citizens, same with Moslem and Asian Americans. They used to be citizens too.

BestIsWest · 04/02/2017 09:34

Placemarking sorry.

WrongTrouser · 04/02/2017 09:34

Hashi This deal would not be about freedom of movement between the UK and Spain. It would be about the situation of nationals from these countries who are currently living in the other country. These are two completely different issues.

Peregrina · 04/02/2017 09:36

Re Spain/Ireland/UK reciprocal arrangements of course it's welcome. But statements made informally don't always translate into practice.

I can't see Spain forfeiting EU membership - not as a country which still has a lot of bitterness from the Civil War and has known Dictatorship. I can see them getting sticky over Gibraltar, and being very careful as to what message is sent to Catalonia.

So I think a lot of water has to flow under the bridge before a deal is made.

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 09:36

It's the same issue though. One members citizens getting a better deal than the others. It's not something to hang your hat on.

TheElementsSong · 04/02/2017 09:38

It would be about the situation of nationals from these countries who are currently living in the other country.

It's certainly an interesting thought. Would it be a sort of "frozen in aspic" sort of idea, i.e. applicable only to people living there on a specific date then no further movement permitted?

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:39

There used to be an exercise designed by a teacher during civil rights campaign called blue eyes/ brown eyes.
www.janeelliott.com

Divide people by eye colour. Reward one group, Victimise the other. Tough watch but no tougher than what's being done as I type, over the sea and in British immigration centres.

On the other had you could read the brilliant, hysterically funny take on race during Obama's term by James Beatty 'The Sell Out"
www.goodreads.com/book/show/22237161-the-sellout
Precious laughter in these times.

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 09:40

I can see what Wrong is saying I think.

UK is free to make free movement deals with whomever it wants post Brexit.

Ireland (through CTA) and now Spain, want this to happen; however, they are not allowed to make these decisions without approval from the EU.

Some people seem perfectly OK with the fact that the EU can decide things like this for member countries (against the country's wishes).

This is one example of how the EU can decide override a country's express wishes if it decides too.

WrongTrouser · 04/02/2017 09:42

Good morning Bear

Do you have an issue with Spain making a promise it can't keep? Or is it you're frustrated the EU won't allow them to keep that promise?

My issue is that I would like the situation of existing EU and UK immigrants resolved satisfactorily as soon as possible as I think it is really unfortunate that these people are having their lives disrupted by Brexit (much as I want to leave the EU).

The UK and Spain seem to be on the verge of agreeing a deal. This is a Good Thing.

If the EU is going to scupper this deal, this is a Bad Thing. I thought Hashi thought the EU was a force for good so I am bemused why the sanguine response to the EU possibly standing in the way of a mutually satisfactory agreement between the UK and Spain.

Either way, we always knew we couldn't have individual agreements with EU27 countries so why be surprised now?

Do you have any links which explain this? What I have read suggests these arrangements are not EU wide, but down to individual states, but I am happy to be corrected.

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 09:44

Sorry, not free movement deals - I am conflating the two.

Continued free movement for CTA; guaranteed rights of citizens in Spain & vice versa.

Two things that a free Britain can decide for itself, but that prisoner nations cannot.

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:45

"Many of the 2.7 million bureaucrats employed by the federal government oppose President Donald Trump’s policies and are actively attempting to sabotage his agenda."

It's called the Resistance. twitter.com/hashtag/resistance?lang=en

In England,the 3 million are harassed and constitutionally violated in silence.

HashiAsLarry · 04/02/2017 09:46

Straw man there again. Being a remainers doesn't mean you believe the eu to be free from problems or a force for good.

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:48

Kudos to the Resistance in the US for not colluding with the notion of 'using EU citizens and ex pats as 'bargaining chips'.

We all know what happened last time people being used as 'bargaining chips'.

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 09:56

Well, it's not a straw man is it?
It's a very real thing that's actually happening.

Britain wants to guarantee rights in Britain for EU citizens who have already made a life/are working here.
Britain have already offered this, providing there is reciprocity.
Some EU countries want to reciprocate.
The EU as a bloc has refused to do this to date, and will not allow member states to do so of their own volition.

woman12345 · 04/02/2017 09:57

Kudos to the Resistance, lawmakers and now airlines in the US for not colluding with racist policies.
While here we have the practice of 'using EU citizens and ex pats as 'bargaining chips'. Blush for grammar errors, racist policies and collusion.

SemiPermanent · 04/02/2017 09:58

*Kudos to the Resistance in the US for not colluding with the notion of 'using EU citizens and ex pats as 'bargaining chips'.

We all know what happened last time people being used as 'bargaining chips'.*

Britain are not using them as 'bargaining chips' at all.

The EU are.