Westministenders: Johnson defends his President whilst we try to defend Britain

[RedToothBrush]

Theresa and Donald
Sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First come Brexit
Then comes the Ban
Then comes the
Removal of Human Rights
… Damn

(Shamelessly stolen from a protest sign)

A couple of weeks ago people were still asking why we were talking about Trump on a Brexit thread. I think the answer has made itself all together too apparent.

What is happening in the US is not going to stop. It’s not going to get any better any time soon. The situation is grave with suggestions there has been a coup. What happens next is not going to be pretty. American institutions are struggling. The rule of law has been undermined. We are not talking about a developing country. We are talking about the country which has stood for freedom and democracy.

Our leadership looks weak in the face of this. We look like we are not only appeasing but endorsing. For what? A trade deal that he could revoke in 30 days?

We have but one question. How many of our ‘British Values’ will have to be sacrifice for the special relationship?

Make no bones about this: Cosying up to Trump threatens our national security. It threatens our democracy. It ruins what little moral authority we have left. It threatens our ties with Europe who we DO still need to have a relationship even if we are outside the EU. This is not world leadership. This is appeasement. This is cowardly weak and downright desperate.

Let us also not forget ‘Good old Boris’ pretending to be Churchill and calling the EU Nazis and Hitler during the Referendum and on several occasions since. He has now had the bare faced audicity to stand in the House of Commons and call MPs out repeatedly for ‘trivalising the holocaust’ or for making comparisons with the 1930s when they saying they have been told this by survivors of the holocaust. It is SHAMEFUL. I also note how many times Johnson referred to Trump being democratically elected as if this makes all the difference and he can’t possibly be a dictator if elected.

Why do they want to use the parallel themselves and HATE it when its used for things they use? Fascists hate being pointed out as fascists.

What would happen if you put it to the public? You have a choice, The EU or Trump? What would they say. At its most basic this is what Brexit is now. You can not hide it or disguise it any longer.

Get used to this. Be prepared to protest, to keep challenging, to keep calling things as they are. Fatigue might set in, but we need to keep on. This is for the long haul.

Today the a50 Bill starts in parliament. It’s not looking good, as it looks like MPs will completely fail in their DUTY to hold the government to account and will not have the balls to add amendments to the bill.

If it passes without any, get worried. It is not just about the EU.

It never was.

Peregrina

Look at the number of votes not just the percentage!

red I am an ignoramus working out poll data: It's up from 637LD to 1190 in Rotherham, that's a big jump? Is 1190 a lot or very small for by election?

"It begs another question too. Are 2015 Labour voters who also voted Leave more or less likely to vote than Remain ones. Totally possible that in chasing the smaller percentage of leavers they are also chasing voters who are less likely to vote in the first place which only serves to amplify how big a problem they have..."

Good point. Can this really not have occurred to them?

Semi
That is not what I said
I said that those who voted for brexit (and for trump) were mostly poor working class and they will be be the ones to suffer
When the professional and academic exodus begins taxes will obv fall
Therefore so will welfare spending

I hope that's clear?

"Kept woman"!?
Wow
Is that you, Nigel!?

That Rotherham result is interesting

May casting herself as a latter day Thatcher will only play well in Tory seats. In many places in the north I doubt whether Thatcher's name will every be said with anything but contempt. Obviously May is hoping that UKIP will do their dirty work for them as far as destroying Labour is concerned in those parts. She might need to rethink.

I believe that local issues played a big part here, and that it's still a Leave area.

The last GE LDS got 1093 votes for the whole constituency on a 59% turnout.

The by-election in 2012 they got 451 on a 33% turnout (remarkablely similar turnout to last night)

In 2010 they got 5994 on a 59% turnout.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a total revolution because of the 2010 result. But there are some bloody pissed off voters who you have to assume are 2015 Labour Remainers.

If you are actually interested semi -
I care for my frail elderly mother (she had another heart attack last week sadly)
And I volunteer in schools teaching children literacy
But yes, I suppose by your definition (from the 1950s) I am a "kept" woman
And I am the daughter of an immigrant - a white one though so that's ok, right?
I am a really hoping my dh can get a job abroad - I want out of this backwards looking country

thanks

Red...yes. I'm one of them!
No way LDs would win here though....Tory through and through (although it's also a very "old" demographic so I guess that could change....

thanks red and peregrina

No woman. The LD got 2000 last night in Catcliffe. Last year they got 637 in the same ward. They have only stood candidates in the ward previously in 2006 and 2004. In 2006 they got 823. In 2004 they got 2006.

This is not a LD area. If repeated across the constituency there are some V pissed off voters. I think it also work pointing out the LD did not stand a candidate in Dinnington. What would have happened if they had? Would the turnout have been higher? Maybe. Maybe not. I definitely think it's a question worth posing though.

badders

Yeah i was a bit at the 'kept woman' bit

And arguing points that no one has, well....pointed

Badders I hope you DM is recovering well

"LDEM: 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 1.0% (+1.0)"

That is amazing, fabulous and great . Feeling much less depressed than yesterday waking up to these news. Might treat myself to a large and tonic tonight to celebrate the lifting of gloomy doom this week good thing I finished my course of penicillin yesterday. Well done Lib Dem

The vote on Wednesday was a vote for mob rule. Justified in many ways as a brexit vote was, by not standing together as parliamentarians after Jo Cox's murder, the response was completely partisan

The message was 'you're on your own' if you are a 'traitor'

Who would vote against that?

If parliamentarians do not feel safe or empowered to vote on their consciences within parties and within parliament, democracy is then dead

woman Can I just ask for clarification of what you are saying here as I may be misinterpreting?

Are you suggesting that MPs voted the way they did for the A50 vote because they are frightened of being murdered?

In what way do you think MPs did not stand together in response to the murder of Jo Cox? What would you like them to have done in addition to what they did (suspending campaigning, not contesting the seat etc)?

It's also notable who seems to think there needs to be a 'solution to people in benefits'

I was living in Rotherham for the 1974 elections, when I was one of the handful who voted Liberal. It was one of those places that they joked that Labour votes were weighed. I have no idea what the results were now, except that the Liberals came nowhere.

I was taken aback this morning by an article in City AM which read began "now that MPs have given permission to trigger Article 50..." gosh, that happened without anyone noticing

There was a leave.eu 'poll' floating about yesterday for Stoke central. They said they were expecting a 33% turnout. Ukip 39%, Lab 33%, Cons 11%, LD 10% and other 7%.

It's for 4000 people. To do a 'proper' poll of this size would cost £30,000.

I'm not buying it.

It's trying to motivate voters to come out and show they have a chance of winning.

If UKIP thought they had it in the bag, they wouldn't be doing this.

I think it could also have an opposite effect because it seems to show a comfortable lead for ukip.

Stoke is getting even more interesting than I thought...

WrongTrouser

In what way do you think MPs did not stand together in response to the murder of Jo Cox? What would you like them to have done in addition to what they did (suspending campaigning, not contesting the seat etc)?

UKIP were leafletting here and across the country, the day after, when other parties had agreed not to out of respect. The EDL stood candidates when others agreed not to. Farage blamed her death for helping Remain.
Women remain MPs in all parties have had death threats, it's common knowledge.

'Traitors' are listed in many fora.

It's not very conducive to free debate, free democracy.

But it's over now. "What's done's done." The vote is cast.
We're out of the EU.

Now what would happen if Nuttall won, but was immediately debarred for electoral fraud? Does it automatically mean another election or does the next candidate get the seat?

Wrong there were threats of violence, outright from Farage, veiled from the media.

I really don't see how anybody could vote conservative under current conditions. Surely you'd be more likely to stay at home in disgust at the incompetence of it all - whatever you voted in the ref - unless, you are devoted fans of Nigel such as some of the more singleminded posters on the other thread, and willing to make to effort to go out and vote ukip in a byelection.

Only the libdems and the snp have a clear message that would motivate people to come out and vote in a byelection IMHO.

begs another question too. Are 2015 Labour voters who also voted Leave more or less likely to vote than Remain ones. Totally possible that in chasing the smaller percentage of leavers they are also chasing voters who are less likely to vote in the first place which only serves to amplify how big a problem they have...

I have been wondering this for a while. I think there is a risk that Labour has made a serious miscalculation. I think Labour remain voters are fundamentally more likely to turn out, because of the correlation between education and turnout.

This is particularly true at by elections and local elections and this is why the Lib Dems are massively outperforming their national "intention to vote" polls: because they are picking up educated remain voters with a high propensity to turn out.

This affects the Tories less because their elderly Middle class core voters do tend turn out - at least in by elections - regardless of educational status (perhaps less so in council elections, hence their underperformance here).

Stoke will be very interesting.