Westministenders: Johnson defends his President whilst we try to defend Britain

[RedToothBrush]

Theresa and Donald
Sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First come Brexit
Then comes the Ban
Then comes the
Removal of Human Rights
… Damn

(Shamelessly stolen from a protest sign)

A couple of weeks ago people were still asking why we were talking about Trump on a Brexit thread. I think the answer has made itself all together too apparent.

What is happening in the US is not going to stop. It’s not going to get any better any time soon. The situation is grave with suggestions there has been a coup. What happens next is not going to be pretty. American institutions are struggling. The rule of law has been undermined. We are not talking about a developing country. We are talking about the country which has stood for freedom and democracy.

Our leadership looks weak in the face of this. We look like we are not only appeasing but endorsing. For what? A trade deal that he could revoke in 30 days?

We have but one question. How many of our ‘British Values’ will have to be sacrifice for the special relationship?

Make no bones about this: Cosying up to Trump threatens our national security. It threatens our democracy. It ruins what little moral authority we have left. It threatens our ties with Europe who we DO still need to have a relationship even if we are outside the EU. This is not world leadership. This is appeasement. This is cowardly weak and downright desperate.

Let us also not forget ‘Good old Boris’ pretending to be Churchill and calling the EU Nazis and Hitler during the Referendum and on several occasions since. He has now had the bare faced audicity to stand in the House of Commons and call MPs out repeatedly for ‘trivalising the holocaust’ or for making comparisons with the 1930s when they saying they have been told this by survivors of the holocaust. It is SHAMEFUL. I also note how many times Johnson referred to Trump being democratically elected as if this makes all the difference and he can’t possibly be a dictator if elected.

Why do they want to use the parallel themselves and HATE it when its used for things they use? Fascists hate being pointed out as fascists.

What would happen if you put it to the public? You have a choice, The EU or Trump? What would they say. At its most basic this is what Brexit is now. You can not hide it or disguise it any longer.

Get used to this. Be prepared to protest, to keep challenging, to keep calling things as they are. Fatigue might set in, but we need to keep on. This is for the long haul.

Today the a50 Bill starts in parliament. It’s not looking good, as it looks like MPs will completely fail in their DUTY to hold the government to account and will not have the balls to add amendments to the bill.

If it passes without any, get worried. It is not just about the EU.

It never was.

Hashi....me too
I'm not sure who they think is going to pay the taxes to pay their benefits if people like my dh leave the uk (and take his 40% tax with him)

It saddens me to think how so many politically illiterate people and their families will suffer because of their belief of the gutter press lies
As I said upthread - the rich will get a lot richer and the poor will get a lot poorer
One thing I'm not getting....growth keeps being revised upwards..so why does the pound keep going down??

Did someone actually just admit on national TV that she voted leave because of straight bananas, or am I hallucinating??

I hallucinated it too, but I immediately realised it was a hallucination because nobody voted because of that, nor because of a big red lie bus.

"Many Leavers love the democratic way Trump rules - by issuing Executive Orders, bypassing Congress and ignoring court decisions against him"

Yes, I don't think democracy can ever have been the issue.

kaija I think they like a 'strongman'. IMHO Trump has more in common with Putin than with western democratic leaders.

Yes, agreed.

On the subject of mediation of the hard left by trade unions, there are still 6 million trade union members in this country. It's a great shame that moderate remain voices like that of Dave Prentis, who runs unison, the NHS union, were not given airtime during the run up to the vote.

Two of the smallest unions - RMT and the bakers - supported leave. All the others - after lots of internal debates, ballots etc - supported remaining in the EU.

Union officials spent weeks travelling around the country visiting workplaces where they are recognised and explaining the implications of leaving the EU for jobs, and there were many TU debates and conferences for those who were interested, to help people try to understand it. I heard the 'lexit' view raised from the platform several times but it was very much a minority 'academic' and 'principled' position rather than the more pragmatic - what's best given that we've got 10 years of Tory government ahead.

I think only a tiny number voted because of bendy bananas, but many more believed the rhetoric of getting rid of red tape to free up business

• not realising that the red tape is employment rights, health& safety, environmental protection etc not straight bananas

Many did believe in the 350 million, or at least that then the UK could spend all that extra unicorn money on the NHS, or that getting rid of immigrants would mean less burden on the nhs

• Instead, May quietly CUT the amount per person in the NHS
• And if those Brit pensioners return from Spain - their pension buys 20% less - the nhs will need more hospitals beds, doctors, staff
• whereas EU tend to be young fit workers - often in the nhs or care workers.

Yes, to be fair bendy bananas was probably as good a reason for voting leave as £350m for the NHS

I'm not sure who they think is going to pay the taxes to pay their benefits if people like my dh leave the uk (and take his 40% tax with him)

So perhaps people on benefits should have had their suffrage removed?

That would be most of the adult population obviously - what with pensions, child benefit, working tax credits, disability benefits etc.

The people on unemployment benefit, child tax credits & free school meals is quite a tiny amount compared to all those other benefit recipients.
But YY - the fact that some of them have an alt right POV is Not Acceptable, as they should not be allowed to vote on important things if they don't vote how higher rate tax payers tell them to vote.

I hate the phrase straw man but that is textbook.

Who talked about removing suffrage?

And presumably you yourself are a higher rate tax payer?
Or are you a kept woman?

Many on benefits are single mothers btw.
But yes, your husband pays for them

Straw man again semi

Who talked about removing suffrage?

Me.
Clearly in my 1st sentence.

I asked if that was the solution to 'people on benefits' being precluded from having political views inconsistent with the political views of higher rate taxpayers.

So it's an anti democratic notion entirely of your own invention (although I wouldn't be amazed if the daily mail had floated it at some time or another) - really has no relevance to the post you were responding to.

I asked if that was the solution to 'people on benefits' being precluded from having political views inconsistent with the political views of higher rate taxpayers.

I've re-read Badder's post and I can't see where she said that people should be precluded from having their own political views b

"The more alt-right people I know are those who've relied or do currently rely on benefits but don't like how they're only basic levels so resent forriners for either getting them too or using the nhs etc. All money they'd prefer in their pockets."

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

They'll find their pockets might remain empty post Brexit.

It really does.

It matters not who has extreme right or extreme left wing views - every vote is equal.

This was a vote on leaving the EU; the notion that 'my higher rate tax paying husband pays for you, you depend on him' is neither here nor there.

Nobody has suggested that every vote was not equal.

Labour GAIN Dinnington (Rotherham) from UKIP.
So UKIP may not be wiping out Labour after all.

Liberal Democrat GAIN Brinsworth & Catcliffe
(Rotherham) from Labour.

This is a revolution. I once lived in the area and would never expect the Lib Dems to get a seat on a Works tea club, never mind a council!

This area will not vote Tory, memories are long and Thatcher's name is one said with contempt. Both places are near to where the Orgreave coking plant was. May refused and enquiry into that, so her name will be mud also.

The ideal is that people should have a clear understanding of the consequences of their vote. Unfortunately that was not the case in the EU Referendum

If they like turkeys voting for Christmas then choose to make themselves worse off, then that is their prerogative - that is a consequence of universal suffrage. Sadly, I don't think that many realised the consequence of their vote.

I have frequently voted for a party that could result in me personally being worse off: I don't mind paying more tax for the greater good. I believe that taxation is important for the things I value: in particular, health and education. When I am a higher rate tax payer (which I have been for most of my career), I can afford it.

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham) result:
LDEM: 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 1.0% (+1.0)

As I say, a staggering result.

Wow.

Figmentofmyimagination I agree about Dave Prentice and TU remain activities, but the unrepealed 1992 Trade Union Act has emasculated ( deliberate use of word) Trade unions, to the point that they are almost irrelevant to actual politics .

Trade unions like old school labour are not part of political consciousness of British people. Has anyone here organised a strike? Now a striker is a traitor, when striking used to be part of the repertoire of legitimate political action.

Brexit is payback for this: in Scotland labour stitched up Scottish Labour during Poll tax, In England Labour did the same to the miners.
I know Scotland voted remain, but memories of the poll tax injustice of it being 'trialled' on Scotland are as vivid as Culloden to a lot of Scots.

Those Rotherham results last night are gobsmacking. Did not see that coming. It's like Sunderland a couple of weeks ago.

Dinnington:
LAB 670 - 36.1% (+15.5)
UKIP 303 - 16.3 (-3.1)
CON 238 - 12.8 (+2.8)
IND 232 - 12.5 (-3.7)
IND 180 - 9.7 (-3.7)
IND 81 - 4.4 (+4.4)
GRN 78 - 4.2 (-3.5)
LDEM 75 - 4.0 (+4.0)
Lab gain from ukip

Brinsworth & Catcliffe (Rotherham) result:
LDEM: 2000 - 66.0% (+50.4)
LAB: 519 - 17.1% (-26.2)
UKIP: 389 - 12.8% (-16.4)
CON: 91 - 3.0% (-8.8)
GRN: 30 - 1.0% (+1.0)

Election data @election_data
19% turnout in the seat Labour won from UKIP (Dinnington) compared to 32% turnout in the LibDem seat (Brinsworth). That's interesting

Previous voting history:

Dinnington
Parliamentary constituency: Rother Valley

May 2016 result Lab 1012/913/827 UKIP 954/871 Ind 795/657/620 C 492 Grn 380
May 2015 result Lab 2037 UKIP 1746 C 1106 Ind 515 Grn 351
May 2014 result UKIP 1293 Lab 1195 Ind 579
May 2012 result Lab 1384 UKIP 454 Ind 416 C 400
May 2011 result Lab 1725 C 761 Ind 465 UKIP 324
May 2010 result Lab 2713 C 1584 UKIP 1156
May 2008 result Lab 979 C 862 LD 502 UKIP 413
May 2007 double vacancy Lab 1216/1080 C 789/560 UKIP 570
May 2006 result Lab 1238 C 827 LD 555
June 2004 result Lab 1604/1559/1552 C 1090 LD 871

Brinsworth and Catcliffe
Parliamentary constituency: Rotherham

May 2016 result Lab 1764/1288/1070 UKIP 1190 LD 637 C 480
May 2015 result Lab 2744 UKIP 2318 C 684
May 2014 result Lab 1651 UKIP 1611
May 2012 result Lab 1618 BNP 872 C 461
May 2011 result Lab 2147 C 668 BNP 581
May 2010 result Lab 2610 BNP 982 C 974 Ind 594 UKIP 411
May 2008 result BNP 1430 Lab 1369 C 708
May 2007 result Lab 1515 BNP 1149 C 610
May 2006 result Lab 1542 LD 823 C 488
June 2004 result Lab 2018/1912/1872 LD 1200 C 865

Voters couldn't be bothered to show in Dinnington. But that affected UKIP voters more than Labour voters.

In Catcliffe, there is no previous LD voting history and they have never got close to 2000 votes in an election even in years where there has been a general election and much higher turnout. Only conclusion you can draw from that is there has been a massive switch to the LDs amongst Labour voters and these particular voters are much more motivated to vote in comparison to any other party hence the higher turnout to Dinnington.

It begs another question too. Are 2015 Labour voters who also voted Leave more or less likely to vote than Remain ones. Totally possible that in chasing the smaller percentage of leavers they are also chasing voters who are less likely to vote in the first place which only serves to amplify how big a problem they have...