Westministenders: Johnson defends his President whilst we try to defend Britain

[RedToothBrush]

Theresa and Donald
Sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First come Brexit
Then comes the Ban
Then comes the
Removal of Human Rights
… Damn

(Shamelessly stolen from a protest sign)

A couple of weeks ago people were still asking why we were talking about Trump on a Brexit thread. I think the answer has made itself all together too apparent.

What is happening in the US is not going to stop. It’s not going to get any better any time soon. The situation is grave with suggestions there has been a coup. What happens next is not going to be pretty. American institutions are struggling. The rule of law has been undermined. We are not talking about a developing country. We are talking about the country which has stood for freedom and democracy.

Our leadership looks weak in the face of this. We look like we are not only appeasing but endorsing. For what? A trade deal that he could revoke in 30 days?

We have but one question. How many of our ‘British Values’ will have to be sacrifice for the special relationship?

Make no bones about this: Cosying up to Trump threatens our national security. It threatens our democracy. It ruins what little moral authority we have left. It threatens our ties with Europe who we DO still need to have a relationship even if we are outside the EU. This is not world leadership. This is appeasement. This is cowardly weak and downright desperate.

Let us also not forget ‘Good old Boris’ pretending to be Churchill and calling the EU Nazis and Hitler during the Referendum and on several occasions since. He has now had the bare faced audicity to stand in the House of Commons and call MPs out repeatedly for ‘trivalising the holocaust’ or for making comparisons with the 1930s when they saying they have been told this by survivors of the holocaust. It is SHAMEFUL. I also note how many times Johnson referred to Trump being democratically elected as if this makes all the difference and he can’t possibly be a dictator if elected.

Why do they want to use the parallel themselves and HATE it when its used for things they use? Fascists hate being pointed out as fascists.

What would happen if you put it to the public? You have a choice, The EU or Trump? What would they say. At its most basic this is what Brexit is now. You can not hide it or disguise it any longer.

Get used to this. Be prepared to protest, to keep challenging, to keep calling things as they are. Fatigue might set in, but we need to keep on. This is for the long haul.

Today the a50 Bill starts in parliament. It’s not looking good, as it looks like MPs will completely fail in their DUTY to hold the government to account and will not have the balls to add amendments to the bill.

If it passes without any, get worried. It is not just about the EU.

It never was.

Great news on other thread, many continuing to fight Trump's administration in US and good news on demo coming up on Saturday

If you really want to fuck with Trump supporter's minds, follow the NRA on Twitter and ask them if they think it's ok for radicalised AMERICAN Muslims to have the right to bear arms
from other thread, some great actions going on.

Politicians listen to voters in other NATO countries too.
The problem is that 2% is not something voters want, when it means less spending on welfare etc or higher taxes.

The dreadful decisions by George W and poodle Blair to go to war in Iraq - which btw Germany & France opposed - caused the chaos in the region that enabled ISIS to rise.
Trump has said he thinks the US is now entitled to take Iraq's oil. He is carrying out much that he said in his campaign. Will he demand that NATO plays its part here ? Or against China ?

Several military and intelligence experts have stated Trump's decisions will help ISIS in the propoganda war.
NI should have showed us how vital it is to win hearts & minds.
Bloody Sunday and internment gave the IRA popular support and hugely boosted their military effectiveness. Military force isn't enough to win this kind of conflict.

YY to your last post bigchoc.

Bear I don't think there are any positives atm

I agree, I certainty can't see any but it does frustrate my when terms like 'hugely significant' get bandied about but the posters who say them never back them up.

I don't think what Trump says about NATO will matter - it's what Bannon wants, as he will be whispering in Trump's ear and pulling the strings, and he is anti-EU and anti-NATO.

BigChoc
It's such a pathetic plot lift from 1984!
"Look there's an enemy, lock up the traitors."
Fund the enemy: Saudi who funds Wahabbi who fund Daish/ISIS who are the enemy.
The guy can't even make up new plot lines!

And NI and the statesmanship shown there and South Africa (for all its massive problems) show how much trust and as you say winning 'hearts and minds' has brought real, fundamental mature peace.
It can be done.

Women's march started by one woman in Miami.

Women's peace movement started by 3 women in NI.

Liberian peace movement.

etc etc

mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/us/migrants-documents-travel-ban.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=

Some grim reading here on how the Muslim ban is being implemented on the ground.

The dreadful decisions by George W and poodle Blair to go to war in Iraq
It was a dreadful decision, agreed, but it was voted on by majority in HOC. Only really Cook spoke out against it? But 9/11 changed everything. It became the reason, the excuse, everything. We have to take responsibility for that here and in the US, and letting panic get in the way of logic in analysing the alleged reasons for going to war.

Was Atlee a poodle to join Truman in Korea in 1950?

Look at how Wilson was vilified by conservative establishment for manning up and not fighting in Vietnam (thanks for pointing that one out BCF didn't know that!)

The Bliar (fake news/ slander?) has in no small part led to the parlous state of Labour now and the one party crap that is happening today.
What would you prefer today, this shower or that shower in government?
Blair even had the politeness and intelligence to speak French to the French.

On the Iraq war: resipsaloquitursite.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/immediate-thoughts-on-the-chilcot-enquiry/

Sorry!

......and letting panic get in the way of logic......

Which is exactly what has happened with the Brexit vote.
As we have seen from the 24th June, when Cameron chucked in the towel, after stating beforehand that he would stay on as PM, after then stating that he would stay on as an MP and running away a few weeks later, as with Theresa May's desperate to invoke A50 because of a deadline she has set.....

With the noble exception of Ken Clarke the vast majority of Tory MPs who voted Remain, in Remain constituencies can only offer 'the will of the people' as their reason for changing their minds. They seem to have collectively taken leave of their senses.

Thank Cecile sometimes it's difficult to know if this new medievalism is real or imagined!

The problem with Trump is that he just sees the EU as a business rival to be crushed, not as an ally with whom he has many interests in common.

That makes him totally different from any previous POTUS

e.g his proposed ambassador to the EU wants to destroy the Euro and has repeatedly called on people to short the currency.
Imagine the reaction if another country's ambassador said they wanted to destroy the pound

Wrecking any currency would cause chaos, but far more so if it were the result of deliberate hostile intervention by a foreign power
NATO would be destroyed, the angry European countries would turn against the US - and the UK - and probably towards Russia (which is why they love Trump)

Motheroffourdragons He has said in his campaign that he would not support any NATO member who hasn't paid their dues. So the only ones other than the US to have done that are Greece (who'd have thought it), Estonia, the UK and Poland.

SemiPermanent Are they paying the amount they signed up to though?

There are no fees, no dues, there's a commitment to spend a proportion of GDP on defence.

That doesn't need to be NATO-related defence, or even defence spending in the NATO area of operations - it's the country's total defence spending. So of course the US and UK manage to spend 2% of GDP on defence, they spend billions on nuclear weapons and billions more projecting their influence all over the world, acting like the world police and getting involved in other people's arguments.

Greece is always listed as the other high contributor to NATO, however it has a much smaller GDP than the UK or US, it uses its army as a job-creation scheme to keep people out of unemployment and, most importantly, most of its military activity is geared towards preventing attack by Turkey, another NATO member - that's hardly contributing to NATO.

Agree Peregrina and BCF

Good news on le Pen mother

And on how marches work, encouraging post on another thread to the effect that, no matter what the effect of protests on the domestic governments, the real effect is how they are seen on social media across world, including in Moslem countries. These protests can work beyond the power bases at home, so it doesn't matter so much that May chooses to ignore them.

They still work.

If capitalists want consumers they are going to have to make sure they are not dead ones.

So NATO is the undead tax, how about that?

We're not planets in a solar system, we're rammed up close and personal on a small rock.

When you share a rock you share resources, that includes subsidising defence from countries who are already in insurmountable debt.

Unless you want said countries to became Daish lite satellites because your mates in Saudi find that useful?

Semi

In answer to are the French spending enough?

Yes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/25/the-biggest-military-budgets-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-infographic-2/#6ce27a714064

Place marking for later

If anyone should be worried about defence it's the people's army here:
www.rt.com/uk/372044-military-spending-budget-cuts/
RT but what the heck, they'll be the new management.

Share prices v good on UK defence industry.
I'm sure being billy no mates after today's vote, won't make us militarily vulnerable. It's not as if we're in a geographically strategic position or anything.

I was aware it was a % of GDP spending btw.