If leaving the EU is a complete and utter disaster, who will you blame?

[fakenamefornow]

Ten years down the line, the economy is struggling because of it, troubles in NI are inflamed again, I'm scared to even think what might go wrong in Gibraltar or a split with Scotland. Anyway, if it is a huge mistake, who will be at fault?

Welcome to Mumsnet by the way.

Indeed

If we are outside the EU if it collaspes we will be just as exposed
How so, we would be nowhere near as exposed as if we were still in it.

Its reassuring that remainers thought membership of the EU was so important that they prioritized Glastonbury over staying in the Union. Leavers took the matter much more seriously.

The FACT is that we have never not had control of our borders

Being allowed to check someones passport and stop terrorists is not having control of our boarders. Many want to leave the EU so that we can actually control our boarders. If we dont want to let someone come here we can say no. And come 2019 we should be able to regain that control.

But those people who May wants to trade with seem to be asking for preferential visa requirements even at this early stage. How much actual control will there actually be as Britain will be one of many would be trading partners, not a member of a large trading group?

But why didn't you ask Cameron and now May to enact the provisions already available to them to control our borders? Why let them lie their way out of responsibility?

Being allowed to check someones passport and stop terrorists is not having control of our boarders.

Can you tell me when you last did not have to go through passport control? I cannot remember one time in 50 odd years of travelling. Unless you sneaked in at night on a smugglers boat?

Can you tell me when you last did not have to go through passport control?

Yes we have passport checks, we DO NOT have the right to say no to people from the EU coming here just because they like the UK. We want CONTROL of our boarders so we can CONTROL who comes here from the EU.

I will blame Cameron for initiating such an appalling referendum which allowed lying politicians (Johnson, Gove, Farage etc) to spin such a web of deceit, bluster and lies, it became impossible for the electorate to have an informed position.
I will blame Corbyn for failing to ensure an effective opposition to them.

I am ashamed when I listen to my children's despair as they listen to the ranting of the 'little Englanders' that are running this country promoting grandiose, xenophobic and divisive ideas that were prevalent in the 1950s / 60s.

I despair when I hear the brexit bullies roaring and shouting about 'remoaners, enemies of the people, project fear'. I fear that this is our future - the Brexit language of hatred, intolerance and contempt. I know that many people voted brexit for, in their eyes, good reasons. But in the light of such an indefensible and crass referendum, a wise government would have acknowledged the challenges and sought to genuinely unite people and find common ground instead of standing behind the haters and shouters (UKIP< Piers Morgan / Daily Mail - I'm looking at you)

It is not true that there were no facts before the referendum . There were, and there were also plenty of lies, spread by different members of the leave campaigns. Of course, they could promise what they want without fear of being held to account, since most of them weren't in a position to carry out those promises:

That Britain would be able to stay within the single market without freedom of movement: Obvious lie.
That we could "regain our sovereignty" and trade with the world: All trade agreements require a certain amount of loss of sovereignty
£350 million for the NHS: Lie.
That most EU laws were imposed on us against our will: Lie. Our representatives voted for the majority of EU laws.
That we would be dragged into an EU army: No, we had a veto.
That all the other members want ever closer union: Not true. Some did, Others didn't.
That the NHS was at risk of privatisation within the EU: Maybe, but it's much, much more vulnerable outside of it - look very carefully at the small print of a trade deal with Trump. Hopefully this won't happen, but it is very possible that such a deal will leave our health service opened up to US firms. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-us-trade-deal-donald-trump-theresa-may-nhs-privatised-food-standards-beef-chicken-a7545536.html
That we would be forced to take huge numbers of refugees if we remained: Actually, by leaving the EU we lose automatic access to the scheme by which failed asylum seekers must be returned to the country in which they were first claimed sanctuary.

And there's loads more of course, but I have things to do.

"Its reassuring that remainers thought membership of the EU was so important that they prioritized Glastonbury over staying in the Union. Leavers took the matter much more seriously."
Don't pretend to be so obtuse Jamie. It does nothing but further undermine your argument. You know full well that shutthefrontdoor was not being literal, you have no insider knowledge on how many Glastonbury attendees completed postal votes, or which way they voted.

We did have the right to limit immigration from the EU, so you can lay the blame for that on Blair onwards. We can throw out people, but it's easier to blame the EU for our own Governments' failings. I do look forward to the time when people have to find another scapegoat.

I know Leavers who voted for what they thought were good reasons. They have gone mighty quiet now. Why aren't they calling out the racists and xenophobes for a starter?

squishy, my comment about Glastonbury was tongue in cheek.

Why aren't they calling out the racists and xenophobes for a starter?

Maybe they are in real life, I know I do. On MN and social media it is such a swamp of trolls its to overwhelming to even try.

A poor excuse Jamie - no Remainer on MN would criticise you for calling out the racists. Since you do in real life, it would be good to see some examples.

YY! It's far too exhausting to type "Hey there, that's racist/xenophobic" but not too tiring to type "How dare Remainers speak/think in a gloomy manner and/or speak/think in a jokey way!"

The Leave Campaign and the £350m.

Everyone who thinks they are informed should have read the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee report on the economic and financial costs and benefits of the UK’s EU membership. Published May 2016. That's all of you, right?

Part of the report, as you will naturally all know, is on a detailed examination of both the Leave and Remain campaigns. BOTH came in for major criticism. In the face of the report and a reading of the minutes of the meetings (or watching the witness evidence on video, it's all easily available) I cannot understand how anyone can criticise one campaign as lying or scaremongering for a result without acknowledging that the other was guilty of the same.

I could quote extensively from the report to support my point but since you have all read it, I will restrict myself to two sentences:

"The public debate is being poorly served by inconsistent, unqualified and, in some cases, misleading claims and counter-claims. Members of both the ‘leave’ and ‘remain’ camps are making such claims."

The committee was comprised of MPs on both sides of the referendum debate and they all signed off the report.

I encourage anyone of a Leave persuasion to quote the committee's conclusion every time they see '£350m' typed out with a sneer.

Poem By Michael Rosen.

I thought Jamie might appreciate.

We did have the right to limit immigration from the EU, so you can lay the blame for that on Blair onwards. We can throw out people, but it's easier to blame the EU for our own Governments' failings. I do look forward to the time when people have to find another scapegoat
I don't. I fear it. The mob will turn on foreigners (which, by their reckoning, in anyone who sounds foreign or looks a bit dusky-hued) in a more concerted way. They're not going to admit to themselves that they were misled by Murdoch and Farridge.

Yes we have passport checks, we DO NOT have the right to say no to people from the EU coming here just because they like the UK

Cursory passport checks and no link up to proper criminal data bases from persons country of origin.

A journalist recently boarded train to the UK from Brussels and got into the UK without showing his passport.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4146246/Terrorists-fast-train-Britain.html
Now its a DM link so of course it cant be true but
Experts last night reacted with horror to the lax regime, with one MP labelling it the country’s ‘soft underbelly for terrorism’.

A former Scotland Yard chief called for the ‘completely unacceptable’ lapse to be ‘urgently addressed’ by the authorities.

Now whatever you want to take from that its just one illustration at lack lustrous effort to police borders.

Does it matter if it was the EU or the government which some insist the problems with the EU to be? it clearly wasn't working.

pale indeed, I think most of us know that but desperate scrapping of the barrel keeps this 350 million going. Its easy to hang onto. In most political campaigns there is always much inflated bull shit.

Its part and parcel of the nature of the beast, I get this - millions of others do....except....

" one MP labelling it the country’s ‘soft underbelly for terrorism’."

Remind me where all the terrorists who have carried out recent attacks in this country came from again?

The public debate is being poorly served by inconsistent, unqualified and, in some cases, misleading claims and counter-claims

This is the problem with the whole referendum. What should have happened was a neutral body present the information (in whatever form) to the nation and then we vote on what we think we'd like to happen in the event of staying or leaving (so we could still have the leave / remain vote). Instead it turned into a Tory-boy cockwaving farce while Farage was rubbing his hands with glee from the sidelines until he joined up with Boris. The whole thing was and remains shambolic.

Pale are you suggesting that the '350million' was correct then ? or are you admitting that it wasn't and it was fine to lie because the other 'side' did too ?

I am guessing you have a comparable fib to hand from the Remain camp ?

Yes i would be curious about a lie that the remain campaign told that is as big as the 350 million

And an absolute lie, not a "this will happen if we leave/remain" which i think both sides were guilty of