Can we stqrt calling it what is is?

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

It's not exit, it's independence. Alternatively we should call it sovereignty or self rule.

An answer backed up by evidence would be good enough; sadly there is a pronounced lack of these in these discussions.

Absolutely right sapphire. It's beyond frustrating to hear the same old rhetoric peddled and, when challenged, it's the same old 'we answered this months ago'

I'm starting to think these posters genuinely believe they came up with solid arguments 6 months ago!

infinite your post was exactly what I'm talking about. You specifically asked me why I didn't care about 3 explicit things. When I asked for clarity on those points and examples so I could respond you were completely unable to give any. Where's a discussion supposed to go from there?

Why is it whenever we have a thread like this, at least one poster comes on to say stop being a nasty, know it all, venomous 'remoaner'? Then goes on say oh and I voted remain by the way.

No you didn't, you're fooling no one (cough cough Rachel).

Humongous fuck up i call.

if you believe Leavers are so bigoted, stupid or just plain wrong then why keep asking?

I think as Remainers are apparently being forced into something they don't want we'd all appreciate some sensible, well thought-out, positive arguments in favour of what's about to happen.

The problem is that we never get any. Just 'Brexit means Brexit', 'will of the people' and 'suck it up', facile rubbish. And multiple posts on here from people who quote erroneous facts - the EU paying import tariffs to us for example, as was claimed yesterday.

ally

Similar happens on the feminism threads with "i am a woman by the way" and on a thread about homphobia with someone who left it as long as possible to declare their sexuality...just waiting for someone to fall into their trap

I always imagine said with a "mic drop" action

Boom...i gotcha

I think it's fine for Leavers to say what they voted for and if, say, it was to not be in an EU with Turkey joining imminently then they had been lied to but it won't undo their vote.

But despite yesterday's speech by May, not to Parliament but an invited audience elsewhere, there is still little of substance. I know it's not the done thing to reference other threads but we have one going about N Ireland. Already in just 38 posts we have thought of some key issues which would need resolving, plus a few jokey ones. It's OK for May to say we will leave the Customs Union. So, what do you do May about N Ireland? Who are you going to try to pass the buck to here? It won't resolve itself. That's just one issue, which would take a good number of people sitting round the table for a good long time to start to thrash it out. If she thinks she can do all this in two years, then she is, as some EU papers are reporting, living in cloud cuckoo land.

I thought the OP was going to be about the xenophobia, populism and unregulated low tax/sold off/completely privatised economy that Brexit is really about.

But no. It's about Independence Day apart from having to grovel to Trump.

Ooh yes and we will also be independent from the NHS. Can't wait!!

Funnily enough, no one has to register with the NHS, but the fact that about 95% do so tells you its own story.

You see, this is the sort of nonsense you seem to think is clever political strategy that gets on people's nerves.

"every naval vessel in Europe should have been intercepting boats, towing them back to their point of origin and then sinking them."

So you think that those naval ships can enter Turkey's waters because they want to? Have you considered the possibility that your "strategy" is crap because you know nothing about international diplomacy and law?

"How would the Turks stop us, the same way the stopped the Russians bombing Syria flat, they couldn't either."

They could, the same way they shot down the Russian plane. You know, the one that veered into their air space for a few seconds.

Wasn't the British Govt stance last year more or less one of 'let them drown to deter others'. This conveniently overlooked the fact that the UK and French Govts destabilised Libya, so that it became a conduit for refugees?

Bear and Sapphire I have been thinking about what you are saying and it's slightly doing my head in trying to understand your mindset. It's like in your world there is no such thing as politics.

If you sat a hardened Tory and a left wing socialist in a room together, they could exchange "facts" and "evidence" and "data" until the cows come home, but neither would convince the other that their way of running the country was right.

You are like one of these people. There is no evidence or data or facts leavers can give you which will convince you that we are right and you are wrong.

You might think that your continuous statements that leavers can't back up their opinions with evidence, data and facts which will convince you makes your argument for remaining sound convincing.

It doesn't, it just makes you sound like someone who can't accept that other people have different political beliefs and values to you, and that these are just as valid to them as yours are to you.

Well - I would say that the Leavers in Government don't really seem to be able to back up their opinions with facts. Brexit means Brexit and a Red, White and Blue Brexit is just hot air. Yesterdays announcement was more of the same - we won't be part of the customs union, but some newly negotiated customs union. No deal is better than a bad deal - hogwash. No deal is a bad deal - it's a bit like being pregnant, you are or you are not, there is no interim state.

And yes, I do think we are entitled to have details of what the Government expects to achieve. We voted them into office, so it's time they began to deliver. And quit blaming the EU May and Johnson - you are the ones in charge of Brexit - get on with it.

If they really did have some sort of plan we should be able to see some sort of detail, in outline. E.g. we will trade with New Zealand. What will we offer, what will they offer us in return? What sort of volume of trade would we be looking at? Something like 45% of our exports go to other EU countries - which of those can easily be traded elsewhere. So far all we have heard is Leasdom with tea and jam. This isn't the WI fete for heaven's sake.

Nevermind no plan the leave argument hasn't even been coherent. From the big red 350 million bus to the stay in the single market, Norway style deal.

Now apparently it was always a hard Brexit. History rewritten. We should BELIEVE apparently, like Children believe in Father Christmas. Unfortunately Brexit will turn out like Santa Claus, you wake up one day and realise its all fantasy.

History rewritten.

If/when it all goes tits up they will be just as quick to pretend that they never said this - we misunderstood, it was those nasty (other) EU countries not playing ball, why don't Independent countries want to be colonies again, and on and on.

Like the big red bus - that promise was reneged or, less politely, ratted on within 24 hours.

And all this to appease 40 or so wealthy and apparently brainless idiots in the Tory party, who are even now probably preparing their bolt holes.

wrong, as peregrina and ghost have said, my problem is the complete and utter lack of any facts to support Leave.

It's all based on feelings, hopes, desires, beliefs and blind faith.

TMs speech yesterday was more of the same.

That's no way to enter into the biggest project this country will probably ever see in our lifetime.

Yet another example of the fact the Leave propaganda is hogwash is this extract from TMs speech

And another thing that's important. The essential ingredient of our success. The strength and support of 65 million people willing us to make it happen.

Because after all the division and discord, the country is coming together.

The referendum was divisive at times. And those divisions have taken time to heal.

Doesn't it occur to Leavers to question everything she said based on this one extract alone?

If May is so deluded she actually thinks the country is united in supporting a hard Brexit when not even all Leave voters wanted it and she thinks the divisions have healed then it rather undermines the rest of her aspirations and uncovers them for the fantasies that they are.

the divisions I feel have not healed at all in the time since the referendum. Because nobody has tried to heal them.

If you're waiting for someone else to do it, no wonder you've not moved on.

As with the most heartbreaking & devastating of relationship breakdowns you have to work at healing yourself.

What does a breaking up with a SO have to do with nearly half the country's concerns being blatantly ignored?

How are they supposed to move on? Go somewhere else to find a new country with more like-minded citizens? The "healing" Mother is talking about will be through the government addressing people's concerns and reuniting them on common ground.

Ffs just how far from reality are you to think this is about licking one's wounds and having a nice cup of tea to "heal" oneself.

It's the end of evidence based decision making, isn't it?

Brexit is the belief that the UK should be able to do whatever the hell it wants and always exactly on its own terms. Which, I guess, would be fine if we didn't have to deal with anywhere else. But that's not reality.

In the brave new era of opinion being equal to fact, it's apparently very simple to ignore geopolitical reality and fully expect the rest of the world to dance to our tune.

What exactly has Theresa May done to heal the race hatred unleashed since the Refendum? Fan the flames more with the ghastly xenophobic Tory Conference. Yes May, you give the appearance of being a bare faced liar.

Ffs just how far from reality are you to think this is about licking one's wounds and having a nice cup of tea to "heal" oneself.

Yes.
This is exactly what I said.
You're right of course, it's me that's 'far from reality' and clearly deluded.

And yet.....it doesn't appear to be me that just blatantly makes shit up!

Peregrina:
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http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/the-real-hate-crime-scandal//