Can we stqrt calling it what is is?

[Itisnoteasybeingdifferent]

It's not exit, it's independence. Alternatively we should call it sovereignty or self rule.

whatwouldrondo Wed 18-Jan-17 11:03:40

Did you read the article?

Far far easier to protect your citizens and people when you run a smaller operation and you want to keep them safe. Its something the Brits are very very good at thankfully.

Why did info sit on someones desk for years and years? Why? Its in excusable in my mind.

There is certainly complete bafflement as to what the UK is doing, that is for sure

That is coming from a country that doesn't know what its own sum of parts is doing, After the Paris attacks we had a slew of articles on the break down of communication within Belgium, the different languages and identity and rivalries and all the problems these caused in keeping the country safe. We have this in the UK ( scotland wales etc- but far far more cohesion than Belgium, again endless - endless articles on it all. They don't know what they are doing let alone the rest of the world.

In the short term and probably long term Britain will be poorer leaving the EU however the EU is well down a road paved with good intentions. Its bloated ever expanding monster needlessly provoking the Russian. Why don't the Russians want the EU and Nato on their borders, well I can give you about 20 millions good reasons.

At the same time the EU has a soft underbelly it is incapable of protecting, when the migrant crisis started every naval vessel in Europe should have been intercepting boats, towing them back to their point of origin and then sinking them. How would the Libyans stop us they, the couldn't. How would the Turks stop us, the same way the stopped the Russians bombing Syria flat, they couldn't either. In fact it might actually have stopped Erdogan destabilising Syria if he couldn't palm the refugees off on Europe. Europe could have imposed a ban on all Turkish goods entering the EU, no more Biko washing machines.

The EU brings prosperity to people. It doesn't it brings people to prosperity. Hence the fact that millions of bright economically active young people are leaving their countries to work in Germany and the UK. The Eurozone was a political creation whose rules were ignored to allow countries like Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain to join without undertaking any kind of economic reform. It keeps German exports artificially cheap and has created mass unemployment in the Southern States. Greece should have left the Euro years ago, devalued its currency so that it was cheap for tourists and making its exports cheaper instead its locked into constant austerity.

France WILL be like Syria in 20 years time if not sooner. Of course someone will come along and say " don't be that's so silly" or "I'm French and that will never happen". At which point I will fill several pages worth of horrific terrorist and anti Semitic attacks proving it really fucking will be. Not ones from Breibart or Gatestone but from legitimate main stream news website's. Here's one below . Who needs Russian fake news when the real thing is more horrific than anything they could invent.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12098456/Killing-of-Jewish-politician-near-Paris-prompts-fears-of-anti-Semitic-attacks.html

The EU is a train wreck and I'm glad we're out of it.

lessworried Yes I did read the article, and I also know people who work in counter terrorism, though their views are on record from Senior Officers. In spite of all they do a terrorist incident in this country is inevitable, and as likely to be perpetrated, as it has been in the past, by a homegrown terrorist, as by an immigrant. Though of course a terrorist would not have to bother with immigration controls, they will just turn up on a tourist visa, and questions like the US use to screen tourists of the "Are you or have you ever been involved in terrorist incidents?" are not going to find them out. A defence arising from a national intelligence service wired in to a joined up cross continent intelligence system backed up by political unity addressing the causal issues would definitely have my confidence over one fronted by May's Home Office Border Agency anyday.

Let's call it what is is - hubris

whatwouldrondo I would agree with everything you said. Brexit shouldn't mean that we don't try to be a good friend and ally to our European neighbours. I would expect us to continue sharing intelligence even if they inflict the most punitive possible Brexit terms. However we cant continue to allow freedom of movement from countries who are incapable , or unwilling to secure their borders.

If you want to live and work in Britain you need to be able to prove that A) You are who you say are. B) Your not a murderer and C) You have a job offer from an actual British company and not just an Agency or can support yourself before you can get a Visa. the cost of this process to be paid for by the applicant. This would also allow us more money to crack down on real undesirables.

If I wanted to work abroad I would have no objection to going though this process

I do think Theresa May should have guaranteed the right to remain for all EU nationals currently living and working in the EU though. Obviously provided they are not subsequently convicted of serious crimes in the UK or discovered to be wanted in their own country.

Mother I have been to Belgium a few times now actually and have spoken to our hosts many times about the different problems in the country due to the many different languages, this has been backed up by further reading and research.

Your not the poster who lived in Belgium and had to go on lock down after the attacks are you - who I had to link articles too - as that poster had no understanding of what was going on?

What we do know however not from the tabloid press at all but from a very comprehensive robust article in Der Speigel is that the EU failed on controlling guns, that they were told and knew were lethal. Those failures led to deaths.

Now if I started a thread now about the death penalty, it would be argued that its not worth bringing it back in case one life was lost in a mistake. One life is too precious to risk.

And yet here we have conclusive evidence that EU officials were told these guns were lethal and nothing was done.You can coat that how you want, you can try and say " we don't know how the french " " we don't know bla" we do know - this important information was sat on for years and now people died.

You have said repeatedly you don't understand leave voters - this is why I have brought this up, I hope you can understand one leavers feelings on this one issue and why its un acceptable to me. This of course is one issue but I have many many more.

Mother - I take it you are talking about Belgium. I was struck whilst travelling through Germany, Belgium and NL a few years ago that they all had places called Limburg, and also struck that the movement of people in the area where the three countries met was greater than in other border areas. Sure enough there was once a Duchy of Limburg, straddling the current borders.

It's something that those of us in England and on an island don't really comprehend. Except I spent much of my childhood in Wales, and coming back to England found it a disturbing experience to be looked down upon by the English, even though I had been born in England. So I can relate to the experience of coming from a country which is a junior partner.

lessworried But what do you think is going to change for the would be terrorist post Brexit? They can still arrive on a train or boat or plane as a tourist, and overstay, just like the majority of the illegal immigrants already living here. Do you really think that any sort of immigration process for immigrants who come here to work and /or love makes any difference to terrorists? Unless of course we are going to adopt discriminatory special processes for people arriving from certain countries a la Trump's harebrained idea. It's not just unworkable but also deeply offensive to many British citizens and some of the people arriving from those countries are uber rich and are pouring money into our economy, and our society, and are going to be the people we trade with and seek investment from. The only people who won't come here as a result will be the EU workers and students that our economy and welfare system need.

Actually when we are a tax / money laundering haven we will need those wealthy Middle Eastern and Asian billionaires, some of whom are crooks, even more......

The arguments/reasons do not need to make sense to you as a Remainer (in fact, they mostly will not); understanding the 'why' involves listening/reading and acknowledging that those reasons were valid to that person.

That's exactly the point being made, isn't it? It's why posters like Bear are asking for concrete points about sovereignty, national identity, economic independence etc, so that they can understand and respond.

Call it 'constant interrogation over the same things' if you like, but it is much less sinister; it's just a desire to get some clarity on what Leave voters mean by these terms, and thus to be able to meaningfully discuss them. It's only 'constant' if and when posters are unwilling or unable to make clear and concrete points or examples.

Can we call it a total fucking mess then.

@SapphireStrange but posters like Bear have been answered many, many times by myself and many other Leave voters. The responses have been read and noted (and the failures to respond, the ignoring of points raised also duly noted). Why is it my job, or any other Leave voters job to answer repeatedly and face a barrage of hostility and abuse from Remain posters? that's not meaningful discussion. Leavers make concrete points and give valid reasons, the responsibility of a refusal to hear or understand or even just accept them must be on the shoulders of those wilfully refusing. I accept your Remain vote, I understand your reasoning and my own view differs. I am sorry if this causes you grief, distress or possible/probable/actual financial hardship. I will still reserve the right to vote as I see fit for the future safety and well being of myself, my children and my country.

IME of these threads, posters like Bear present reasoned and solid counter-points to the Leavers' points, which get shouted down or dismissed.

if you believe Leavers are so bigoted, stupid or just plain wrong then why keep asking? Go out and research why people voted Leave. If our answers are so 'pathetic' to use one of Bears replies why keep asking? It's the repetitiveness that gets the interrogation label can you understand why we may wish to stop answering if no answer will ever be good enough? Remainers don't get shouted down or dismissed they are however regularly requested to be less robust, more mindful and to do less namecalling especially on a thread started by Leavers, predominantly populated by Leavers and one thread where I personally would like to post without receiving abuse.

if no answer will ever be good enough?

An answer backed up by evidence would be good enough; sadly there is a pronounced lack of these in these discussions.

"In the short term and probably long term Britain will be poorer leaving the EU"

I think this will come as a surprise to many who voted Leave. This was very much not what was said during the referendum campaign.

I should add, it wasn't said by the Leave campaign. It was mentioned repeatedly by the Remain campaign, but dismissed as "Project Fear".